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The key point in this Twitter rant is that the SWEs who understood the Mac (and NEXTSTEP, for that matter) have aged out. Most everyone has retired or moved ont

The key point in this Twitter rant is that the SWEs who understood the Mac (and NEXTSTEP, for that matter) have aged out. Most everyone has retired or moved onto other opportunities. There's very few of them left at Apple. And they're often overruled by younger managers. Apple is hiring tons of fresh new SWEs who have no understanding, nor desire to understand "The Mac Way". I'm not saying this is right or wrong, the world needs to move on, but it's a punch to my nostalgic gut. If you're hanging onto the Mac out of some belief that Apple will re-find their way WRT macOS, don't. That train left the station years ago. It's past time to move on.

KerrAvon 4y ago
Your assertion about “The Mac Way” is simply false. The VP in charge of macOS is an ex-NeXT person; a lot of ex-NeXT and Apple people still work on it. macOS user experience continues to be driven from the UI design group and executives, as it always has been. Feel free to criticize the design direction, but understand that it’s fully top-down intentional, not something that just happens because individual software engineering positions are suddenly filled with non-Mac people. That’s not how it works. macOS is designed by UI designers.
- queuebert 4y ago
  Maybe different types of users need different user experiences, and Mac is the least flexible of the three major OSes.
layer8 4y ago
The same seems to have happened at Microsoft for Windows.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
Why does the world need to move on? The world needs desktop computers. Phones and even tablets are useless for doing actual work.
what-imright 4y ago
Jobs was against dogma. It’s a changing world and the perspective and input of the young is valuable. What exactly are you moving on to? Ubuntu? Windows? Behind macOS is the most valuable company in the world adding fixes, features and security patches. There isn’t any other computing solution today that can deliver what Apple does.
- mfcl 4y ago
  I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?
  - what-imright 4y ago
    e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. but hey I’m jealous because you have so many pleasurable experiences to come. I suggest jumping in and buying the new iPhone 14. Go all in get the Pro Max. You’ll get a massive return on the investment. I’m a tech junkie, I’ve had it all. Doesn’t get better than Apple
    - inb4_cancelled 4y ago
      You didn't really answer the question.
      - what-imright 4y ago
        I did you just didn’t like the answer.
        Bud 4y ago
        No, you failed to answer, then doubled down and hoped nobody would notice. We noticed.
        what-imright 4y ago
        my answer was everything - you miss the entire computing experience if you use windows or linux on desktop today or android on mobile. In 2022, if you aren’t using Apple you’re in the red. You might as well not have bothered. Windows is worse than nothing. Android is worse than nothing. Linux is awesome for servers, but the desktop experience isn’t quite there. I’ve used all the platforms. Windows and android are incompetent, poorly designed, serve the user LAST, poorly updated, insecure, spying on you, and annoying AF to use. Worse than nothing. Worse than no computer or phone at all.
1-6 4y ago
I think Apple has already sailed the seas of no return. Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place. Life is a cycle of highs and lows. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
- Jensson 4y ago
  > Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place. I doubt it, new companies spring up like mushrooms when fields gets disruptively innovated, but big companies tend to stay otherwise. Can see it here, lots of shifts in the biggest companies the first half, while the second half is dominated by Apple, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, Facebook and Amazon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuloaATQRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuloaATQRA Or ask yourself, when was the last time a new American car brand was created? Tesla thanks to the electric car disruption, but other than Tesla it was a very long time ago. Same thing will happen in software once disruptive events get less common.
  - onetokeoverthe 4y ago
  - 1-6 4y ago
    I was taking apart my Dyson today to clean it out. I was thinking that it was elegant and useful. I sort of like the company because it doesn’t attempt to get in the way and just provides a nice experience for a tad higher price. Then I thought vacuum cleaners have existed for a while now. There’s the Whirlwind, Bissel, Kirby, Electrolux, Hoover, Oreck, Dyson, and most recently iRobot. Each generation had their brand. We’re living through cycles and computers with operating systems are no different. With all the Chromebooks floating around in schools today, I bet you’ll have a generation of kids who will do everything on a web browser in the cloud and won’t complain about not having an exposed filesystem.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      Microwave ovens are simple to design and that makes them not comparable, almost all the cost comes from running the factory and buying inputs. A consumer level OS on the other hand is extremely expensive to develop and basically free to copy, so the advantage of scale is extreme, you wont see that level of competition there.
drawingthesun 4y ago
Moved on to where? Windows has adverts in the start menu! Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker. Since I moved to Mac from Windows I’m thankful for macOS even if it could be better, it’s still much more usable than the alternatives. I find myself spending more time on my professional work and less time fixing driver issues or fighting annoying in OS ads.
- lbwtaylor 4y ago
  Apple constantly spams you with popup ads for their cloud services, far worse IMHO than any start menu nonsense. To each their own.
  - tmikaeld 4y ago
    Where? I have several Macs in my office, I might have seen a question on upgrade, but that's it. In Safari?
    - runjake 4y ago
      Not the commenter but macOS regularly spams people with: - Ads to try Apple Music free for a month. - Ads to try News+ - Ads to try Fitness+ - Try Safari (if it’s not your default browser) - Try/log into iCloud if you’re not logged into iCloud. - Try the latest macOS release if you aren’t on it. As an aside, you do not want to even log into the Mac App Store with a personal account on a work computer. Logging into just the Mac App Store effectively logs you into your iCloud on that machine and sensitive personal data is then strewn across various files under ~/Library. The iCloud sysprefs will claim you are not logged into iCloud but ~/Library will show you the truth.
      - thies226j 4y ago
        I am a macOS user and have never seen a popup or ads for News+, fitness+ or Apple Music. In addition to that, what personal data are you talking about in your last paragraph?
personjerry 4y ago
But don't the product designers define the Mac Experience rather than the SWEs?
- giantrobot 4y ago
  Yes, but people are ranting about stuff. Don't interrupt a good uninformed rant.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ksec 4y ago
80% the people working in Apple now were hired after the Steve Jobs's death. Which means that most of the old Mac, NEXTSTEP folks are likely all retired. Those that first put out Apple HIG, along with other software UX expert left as well. After Tim Cook fired Scott Forstall and named Jony as the CDO.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Most of the NeXT folks I worked with left many years ago. Perhaps generous stock options contributed to the exodus. Or perhaps once OS X was clicking along with a new Window Server and graphic sub-system, replete with an Objective-C-based Cocoa API, they felt like the work was complete. There are nonetheless many of the old guard still there — presumably navigating the Swift-UI transition. And Craig Federighi is, in my opinion, a very capable captain to be steering the OS ship for Apple.

KerrAvon 4y ago

Your assertion about “The Mac Way” is simply false. The VP in charge of macOS is an ex-NeXT person; a lot of ex-NeXT and Apple people still work on it. macOS user experience continues to be driven from the UI design group and executives, as it always has been. Feel free to criticize the design direction, but understand that it’s fully top-down intentional, not something that just happens because individual software engineering positions are suddenly filled with non-Mac people. That’s not how it works. macOS is designed by UI designers.

queuebert 4y ago
Maybe different types of users need different user experiences, and Mac is the least flexible of the three major OSes.

layer8 4y ago

The same seems to have happened at Microsoft for Windows.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

Why does the world need to move on? The world needs desktop computers. Phones and even tablets are useless for doing actual work.

what-imright 4y ago

Jobs was against dogma. It’s a changing world and the perspective and input of the young is valuable. What exactly are you moving on to? Ubuntu? Windows? Behind macOS is the most valuable company in the world adding fixes, features and security patches. There isn’t any other computing solution today that can deliver what Apple does.

mfcl 4y ago
I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?
- what-imright 4y ago
  e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. but hey I’m jealous because you have so many pleasurable experiences to come. I suggest jumping in and buying the new iPhone 14. Go all in get the Pro Max. You’ll get a massive return on the investment. I’m a tech junkie, I’ve had it all. Doesn’t get better than Apple
  - inb4_cancelled 4y ago
    You didn't really answer the question.
    - what-imright 4y ago
      I did you just didn’t like the answer.
      - Bud 4y ago
        No, you failed to answer, then doubled down and hoped nobody would notice. We noticed.
        what-imright 4y ago
        my answer was everything - you miss the entire computing experience if you use windows or linux on desktop today or android on mobile. In 2022, if you aren’t using Apple you’re in the red. You might as well not have bothered. Windows is worse than nothing. Android is worse than nothing. Linux is awesome for servers, but the desktop experience isn’t quite there. I’ve used all the platforms. Windows and android are incompetent, poorly designed, serve the user LAST, poorly updated, insecure, spying on you, and annoying AF to use. Worse than nothing. Worse than no computer or phone at all.

1-6 4y ago

I think Apple has already sailed the seas of no return. Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place. Life is a cycle of highs and lows. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

Jensson 4y ago
> Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place. I doubt it, new companies spring up like mushrooms when fields gets disruptively innovated, but big companies tend to stay otherwise. Can see it here, lots of shifts in the biggest companies the first half, while the second half is dominated by Apple, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, Facebook and Amazon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuloaATQRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuloaATQRA Or ask yourself, when was the last time a new American car brand was created? Tesla thanks to the electric car disruption, but other than Tesla it was a very long time ago. Same thing will happen in software once disruptive events get less common.
- onetokeoverthe 4y ago
- 1-6 4y ago
  I was taking apart my Dyson today to clean it out. I was thinking that it was elegant and useful. I sort of like the company because it doesn’t attempt to get in the way and just provides a nice experience for a tad higher price. Then I thought vacuum cleaners have existed for a while now. There’s the Whirlwind, Bissel, Kirby, Electrolux, Hoover, Oreck, Dyson, and most recently iRobot. Each generation had their brand. We’re living through cycles and computers with operating systems are no different. With all the Chromebooks floating around in schools today, I bet you’ll have a generation of kids who will do everything on a web browser in the cloud and won’t complain about not having an exposed filesystem.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Microwave ovens are simple to design and that makes them not comparable, almost all the cost comes from running the factory and buying inputs. A consumer level OS on the other hand is extremely expensive to develop and basically free to copy, so the advantage of scale is extreme, you wont see that level of competition there.

drawingthesun 4y ago

Moved on to where? Windows has adverts in the start menu! Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker. Since I moved to Mac from Windows I’m thankful for macOS even if it could be better, it’s still much more usable than the alternatives. I find myself spending more time on my professional work and less time fixing driver issues or fighting annoying in OS ads.

lbwtaylor 4y ago
Apple constantly spams you with popup ads for their cloud services, far worse IMHO than any start menu nonsense. To each their own.
- tmikaeld 4y ago
  Where? I have several Macs in my office, I might have seen a question on upgrade, but that's it. In Safari?
  - runjake 4y ago
    Not the commenter but macOS regularly spams people with: - Ads to try Apple Music free for a month. - Ads to try News+ - Ads to try Fitness+ - Try Safari (if it’s not your default browser) - Try/log into iCloud if you’re not logged into iCloud. - Try the latest macOS release if you aren’t on it. As an aside, you do not want to even log into the Mac App Store with a personal account on a work computer. Logging into just the Mac App Store effectively logs you into your iCloud on that machine and sensitive personal data is then strewn across various files under ~/Library. The iCloud sysprefs will claim you are not logged into iCloud but ~/Library will show you the truth.
    - thies226j 4y ago
      I am a macOS user and have never seen a popup or ads for News+, fitness+ or Apple Music. In addition to that, what personal data are you talking about in your last paragraph?

personjerry 4y ago

But don't the product designers define the Mac Experience rather than the SWEs?

giantrobot 4y ago
Yes, but people are ranting about stuff. Don't interrupt a good uninformed rant.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ksec 4y ago

80% the people working in Apple now were hired after the Steve Jobs's death. Which means that most of the old Mac, NEXTSTEP folks are likely all retired. Those that first put out Apple HIG, along with other software UX expert left as well. After Tim Cook fired Scott Forstall and named Jony as the CDO.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Most of the NeXT folks I worked with left many years ago. Perhaps generous stock options contributed to the exodus. Or perhaps once OS X was clicking along with a new Window Server and graphic sub-system, replete with an Objective-C-based Cocoa API, they felt like the work was complete. There are nonetheless many of the old guard still there — presumably navigating the Swift-UI transition. And Craig Federighi is, in my opinion, a very capable captain to be steering the OS ship for Apple.