4 ms·

i am pretty much in the minority but if USA and "allies" didnt help ukraine, russia would come in, wipe the ruling party out, maybe destry some cities but the

i am pretty much in the minority but if USA and "allies" didnt help ukraine, russia would come in, wipe the ruling party out, maybe destry some cities but the whole thing would be over in less time. the exact same thing that happened with afghanistan or iraq for example. instead, for once, USA has all the concern for human lives and "democracy" and is arming ukraine, thereby prolonging the war. this isn't even my own idea, this is the same ideology that USA itself uses to justify hiroshima/nagasaki... if USA isnt going to be responsible for actual crimes against humanity in hiroshima or vietnam with its napalm and others or with afghanistan or iraq then why are these same people trying to fault Russia for doing the same thing they did?

pjc50 4y ago
And when Russia comes for Poland, or Estonia, likewise they should surrender to make it quick? After all, to resist would be to harm the army of gunpoint Ukranian conscripts that would be used.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  uh.... afhganistan, then iraq, then libya, syria, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... so america can be involved in so many regime changes for the lulz, right?
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    So your argument is that because the USA are warmongering megalomaniacs, we should all be fine with Russia being one as well?
    - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
      why not....... the world did not stop you over the years, why are you stopping someone else now or has the USA decided to no interfere with third party conflicts ?
nradov 4y ago
Bombing Hiroshima was not a war crime under the rules in effect at the time. The city was a legitimate military target. There was no requirement for combatants to avoid all collateral damage.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  then isn't ukraine a target or the rules have changed?
  - nradov 4y ago
    A target of what? The laws of war have changed since WW2, primarily through the Geneva Conventions but there have been a number of other international treaties as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
    - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp says hi
      - nradov 4y ago
        Your comment is off topic and irrelevant. US war crimes allegedly committed during the GWOT have nothing to do with the current war between Ukraine and Russia, or with ships sunk during WW1 (the original topic).
        justsomehnguy 4y ago
        "I don't like your comment so you and your comment is irellevant"
        4y ago
swores 4y ago
Whether or not the US has done bad things isn't a factor in whether Ukraine deserves support against illegal invasion and war crimes by Russia. Yes it would be much better if countries like USA has perfect track records, and hopefully they'll get better at not harming other countries, but that doesn't change the fact that they're on the right side in this situation.
Chris2048 4y ago
> why are these same people trying to fault Russia for doing the same thing they did? You mean unprovoked Ukraine invasion vs an attack spurred by Pearl harbour (at a time of World War that Japanese where allies of Nazi Germany). Not really "the same thing".
peatmoss 4y ago
Comparing use of nuclear weapons in Japan to allowing russia to, uncontested, wage a war of invasion against Ukraine is silly. Japan started a war of aggression with the United States. We, as people with the benefit of hindsight, probably agree on whether nuclear weapons were an appropriate place to take the war. But don’t forget that Japan brought war to the US, just as russia has brought war to Ukraine. As for Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, I can look at US military moral failures there and still condemn russia’s epic moral failure in Ukraine. Incidentally, US’s invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 was far more justified than the soviet invasion of Afghanistan previously. If soviets hadn’t waged a similar immoral expansionist war there, I’m confident there’d have been no taliban. No, the US isn’t morally pure, but Ukraine’s blood is on russia’s hands alone.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- landemva 4y ago
  > Japan started a war of aggression with the United States. Before that, President Roosevelt enacted a broad embargo on Japan. No more steel and no more fuel. Some say Roosevelt provoked the Japanese to act, and the timeline supports that idea. https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930 https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930
  - nradov 4y ago
    The embargo was a matter of economic sanctions only. There was no blockade, no use of force, no act of war. If Japan was short of resources, well that was their problem. No one forced them to start a war of aggression by attacking Pearl Harbor.
    - landemva 4y ago
      Is there some other international sanctions beyond economic? Keep strangling an island nation, restrict imports, and expect them to not react? If a person believes "my body my right" and is fired from a federal job for refusing to take an emergency use authorization shot, is that also ok because it only harms the person economically?
loudmax 4y ago
> USA has all the concern for human lives and "democracy" Well yes, a lot of Americans (and Europeans and Asians, and even Russians) value "democracy". They also value things like "freedom of expression" and "the rule of law" that aren't particularly valued by Vladimir Putin.
mopsi 4y ago
> i am pretty much in the minority but if USA and "allies" didnt help ukraine, russia would come in, wipe the ruling party out, maybe destry some cities but the whole thing would be over in less time. the exact same thing that happened with afghanistan or iraq for example. No, not even close. Russia's goal in Ukraine is the destruction of Ukrainian statehood and ethnicity by merging its territory into Russia and turning Ukrainian people into servant underclass in the new Russian empire. Genocide, in short. See Putin's speech on the eve of the war and his pseudohistorical essays. Nothing the US did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan or Vietnam comes close. The US did not attempt to merge Iraq into the United States and enslave the people of Iraq. When facing genocide, surrender is not an option. It's insane to even suggest that. Nor are Russian ambitions limited to Ukraine, concessions will only lead to escalation.

pjc50 4y ago

And when Russia comes for Poland, or Estonia, likewise they should surrender to make it quick? After all, to resist would be to harm the army of gunpoint Ukranian conscripts that would be used.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
uh.... afhganistan, then iraq, then libya, syria, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... so america can be involved in so many regime changes for the lulz, right?
- Semaphor 4y ago
  So your argument is that because the USA are warmongering megalomaniacs, we should all be fine with Russia being one as well?
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    why not....... the world did not stop you over the years, why are you stopping someone else now or has the USA decided to no interfere with third party conflicts ?

nradov 4y ago

Bombing Hiroshima was not a war crime under the rules in effect at the time. The city was a legitimate military target. There was no requirement for combatants to avoid all collateral damage.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
then isn't ukraine a target or the rules have changed?
- nradov 4y ago
  A target of what? The laws of war have changed since WW2, primarily through the Geneva Conventions but there have been a number of other international treaties as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp says hi
    - nradov 4y ago
      Your comment is off topic and irrelevant. US war crimes allegedly committed during the GWOT have nothing to do with the current war between Ukraine and Russia, or with ships sunk during WW1 (the original topic).
      - justsomehnguy 4y ago
        "I don't like your comment so you and your comment is irellevant"
        4y ago

swores 4y ago

Whether or not the US has done bad things isn't a factor in whether Ukraine deserves support against illegal invasion and war crimes by Russia. Yes it would be much better if countries like USA has perfect track records, and hopefully they'll get better at not harming other countries, but that doesn't change the fact that they're on the right side in this situation.

Chris2048 4y ago

> why are these same people trying to fault Russia for doing the same thing they did? You mean unprovoked Ukraine invasion vs an attack spurred by Pearl harbour (at a time of World War that Japanese where allies of Nazi Germany). Not really "the same thing".

peatmoss 4y ago

Comparing use of nuclear weapons in Japan to allowing russia to, uncontested, wage a war of invasion against Ukraine is silly. Japan started a war of aggression with the United States. We, as people with the benefit of hindsight, probably agree on whether nuclear weapons were an appropriate place to take the war. But don’t forget that Japan brought war to the US, just as russia has brought war to Ukraine. As for Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, I can look at US military moral failures there and still condemn russia’s epic moral failure in Ukraine. Incidentally, US’s invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 was far more justified than the soviet invasion of Afghanistan previously. If soviets hadn’t waged a similar immoral expansionist war there, I’m confident there’d have been no taliban. No, the US isn’t morally pure, but Ukraine’s blood is on russia’s hands alone.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
landemva 4y ago
> Japan started a war of aggression with the United States. Before that, President Roosevelt enacted a broad embargo on Japan. No more steel and no more fuel. Some say Roosevelt provoked the Japanese to act, and the timeline supports that idea. https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930 https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1930
- nradov 4y ago
  The embargo was a matter of economic sanctions only. There was no blockade, no use of force, no act of war. If Japan was short of resources, well that was their problem. No one forced them to start a war of aggression by attacking Pearl Harbor.
  - landemva 4y ago
    Is there some other international sanctions beyond economic? Keep strangling an island nation, restrict imports, and expect them to not react? If a person believes "my body my right" and is fired from a federal job for refusing to take an emergency use authorization shot, is that also ok because it only harms the person economically?

loudmax 4y ago

> USA has all the concern for human lives and "democracy" Well yes, a lot of Americans (and Europeans and Asians, and even Russians) value "democracy". They also value things like "freedom of expression" and "the rule of law" that aren't particularly valued by Vladimir Putin.

mopsi 4y ago

> i am pretty much in the minority but if USA and "allies" didnt help ukraine, russia would come in, wipe the ruling party out, maybe destry some cities but the whole thing would be over in less time. the exact same thing that happened with afghanistan or iraq for example. No, not even close. Russia's goal in Ukraine is the destruction of Ukrainian statehood and ethnicity by merging its territory into Russia and turning Ukrainian people into servant underclass in the new Russian empire. Genocide, in short. See Putin's speech on the eve of the war and his pseudohistorical essays. Nothing the US did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan or Vietnam comes close. The US did not attempt to merge Iraq into the United States and enslave the people of Iraq. When facing genocide, surrender is not an option. It's insane to even suggest that. Nor are Russian ambitions limited to Ukraine, concessions will only lead to escalation.