9 ms·

Is it really that weird? In the military 6 years is definitely considered senior and I’m sure that’s also the case in a lot of other fields.

fake-name 4y ago
I know the EE & ME worlds, senior generally implies at least two decades of experience. I'm pretty sure the same is also true for civil engineering, and most of the other "hard" engineering practices. It seems like (at least outside of the military) the duration to being senior and the importance of things not going wrong are correlated.
- ReadTheLicense 4y ago
  The meaning is different. In software industry, senior means "doesn't need handholding", not "super-super-long experience" as in other more traditional fields.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I expect more than that, a senior should be in the position of accomplishing a task based on a ruff abstract, they should also be able to mentor juniors and jump into meetings with the customer, supporting architects and sales, if needed.
- tiahura 4y ago
BerislavLopac 4y ago
I think a part of this issue is that there is nothing above senior. Additionally, "seniority" is relative and can vary between different technologies: for example, I have been working as a software engineer for 25+ years, and while I have worked with Java before I am no better at it than someone who just graduated. Similarly, even though I spent nearly a decade as a frontend dev, the last time I did that professionally was in mid-aughts, and I have zero experience with React, TypeScript and other modern staples of that area.
- unwind 4y ago
  Sometimes I see the title "principal engineer" used, and my impression is that it trumps a mere senior. See [1] for an example. I'm not in the US though and also work as a contractor so it's hard to use titles like these in my daily work. [1]: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation/compensation-calculator/#gitlab-job-grades https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation...
  - kasey_junk 4y ago
    You, accidentally, tripped a pet peeve of mine. Many people seem to think of writing software as a command and control function like some hypothetical military rank (and the leveling process engaged in by tech. companies reinforces this) where people higher up the ladder “trump” those lower. But in software (and perhaps all knowledge work) many many times its the lowest ladder employees who are closest to the actual problem space. They are the ones dealing with the hacked up code base from 8 years ago, the indecipherable comments, the untested code that is critical to the business. The job of the more senior people is not to command and control those employees, but to empower them. Bringing breadth of experience, or in depth expertise that is not specific to the problem at hand to help them make a decision. Sorry, rant over.
    - treis 4y ago
      What do you think should happen if a more senior person brings their breadth of experience or expertise and the junior engineer disagrees and does something else?
      - kasey_junk 4y ago
        Obviously depends on the situation but almost always the person closest to the specific problem should make the call. That’s why one of the most important differences between a more senior engineer and a more junior one is the ability to mentor.
- dijit 4y ago
j7ake 4y ago
In many hard sciences, 6 years is graduate school.
- OJFord 4y ago
  And a PhD would be senior to a graduate? Also the quote is 'professional', so although it's probably not the case, it doesn't preclude spending your 6 years in 'graduate school' beforehand anyway.
  - badpun 4y ago
    After PhD, people are forced to do postdocs, which are nominally junior positions.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > After PhD, people are forced to do postdocs You don’t have to do a postdoc.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      But not compared to the new grad/undergraduate intern washing petri dishes or whatever. My point is that what you label 'junior' doesn't matter, it's all relative.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  If you go to graduate school then your first job is ‘senior’ because by that point you’re a world-expert in your field.
papito 4y ago
My friend is in the military (information technology side). We are both 40-ish. I am only beginning to feel like a senior, and he has the option to retire.
goodpoint 4y ago
In most engineering it takes 15 if not 20 years. Otherwise the term "senior" gets completely watered down.
- foobarian 4y ago
  Many software companies have official ranks where "senior" is a step up after "junior," to be followed by "principal," "senior principal," and/or "staff." "Staff engineer" may not sound as impressive as "senior" to a layperson, but at say Google those people are like minor deities.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    "principal" and "staff" are even more vague than "senior" and exist only in few companies. More importantly, they almost never refer to total experience and instead refer to being promoted within a given company.

fake-name 4y ago

I know the EE & ME worlds, senior generally implies at least two decades of experience. I'm pretty sure the same is also true for civil engineering, and most of the other "hard" engineering practices. It seems like (at least outside of the military) the duration to being senior and the importance of things not going wrong are correlated.

ReadTheLicense 4y ago
The meaning is different. In software industry, senior means "doesn't need handholding", not "super-super-long experience" as in other more traditional fields.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I expect more than that, a senior should be in the position of accomplishing a task based on a ruff abstract, they should also be able to mentor juniors and jump into meetings with the customer, supporting architects and sales, if needed.
tiahura 4y ago

BerislavLopac 4y ago

I think a part of this issue is that there is nothing above senior. Additionally, "seniority" is relative and can vary between different technologies: for example, I have been working as a software engineer for 25+ years, and while I have worked with Java before I am no better at it than someone who just graduated. Similarly, even though I spent nearly a decade as a frontend dev, the last time I did that professionally was in mid-aughts, and I have zero experience with React, TypeScript and other modern staples of that area.

unwind 4y ago
Sometimes I see the title "principal engineer" used, and my impression is that it trumps a mere senior. See [1] for an example. I'm not in the US though and also work as a contractor so it's hard to use titles like these in my daily work. [1]: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation/compensation-calculator/#gitlab-job-grades https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation...
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  You, accidentally, tripped a pet peeve of mine. Many people seem to think of writing software as a command and control function like some hypothetical military rank (and the leveling process engaged in by tech. companies reinforces this) where people higher up the ladder “trump” those lower. But in software (and perhaps all knowledge work) many many times its the lowest ladder employees who are closest to the actual problem space. They are the ones dealing with the hacked up code base from 8 years ago, the indecipherable comments, the untested code that is critical to the business. The job of the more senior people is not to command and control those employees, but to empower them. Bringing breadth of experience, or in depth expertise that is not specific to the problem at hand to help them make a decision. Sorry, rant over.
  - treis 4y ago
    What do you think should happen if a more senior person brings their breadth of experience or expertise and the junior engineer disagrees and does something else?
    - kasey_junk 4y ago
      Obviously depends on the situation but almost always the person closest to the specific problem should make the call. That’s why one of the most important differences between a more senior engineer and a more junior one is the ability to mentor.
dijit 4y ago

j7ake 4y ago

In many hard sciences, 6 years is graduate school.

OJFord 4y ago
And a PhD would be senior to a graduate? Also the quote is 'professional', so although it's probably not the case, it doesn't preclude spending your 6 years in 'graduate school' beforehand anyway.
- badpun 4y ago
  After PhD, people are forced to do postdocs, which are nominally junior positions.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > After PhD, people are forced to do postdocs You don’t have to do a postdoc.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    But not compared to the new grad/undergraduate intern washing petri dishes or whatever. My point is that what you label 'junior' doesn't matter, it's all relative.
chrisseaton 4y ago
If you go to graduate school then your first job is ‘senior’ because by that point you’re a world-expert in your field.

papito 4y ago

My friend is in the military (information technology side). We are both 40-ish. I am only beginning to feel like a senior, and he has the option to retire.

goodpoint 4y ago

In most engineering it takes 15 if not 20 years. Otherwise the term "senior" gets completely watered down.

foobarian 4y ago
Many software companies have official ranks where "senior" is a step up after "junior," to be followed by "principal," "senior principal," and/or "staff." "Staff engineer" may not sound as impressive as "senior" to a layperson, but at say Google those people are like minor deities.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  "principal" and "staff" are even more vague than "senior" and exist only in few companies. More importantly, they almost never refer to total experience and instead refer to being promoted within a given company.