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I just don't understand how we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Same with housin

by sva_ 4y ago

I just don't understand how we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Same with housing, why can Chinese nationals buy housing here, while I can't do so there?

baby 4y ago
We’re not a dictatorship?
- treeman79 4y ago
  Yet
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    Just two more years and we have another chance to reverse course.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ta8645 4y ago
- mjmsmith 4y ago
  This nutjob honeypot tastes delicious.
withinboredom 4y ago
Because it’s a sovereign country that makes its own rules? So, basically the same reason that you can’t just move to Italy because you feel like it.
- sva_ 4y ago
  As a matter of fact, I can, as a European citizen (basically)[0]. [0] https://www.unipi.it/index.php/welcome-and-support/item/7413-right-of-entry-and-residence-for-eu-residents https://www.unipi.it/index.php/welcome-and-support/item/7413...
- noslenwerdna 4y ago
  And what is wrong with sovereign countries adopting reciprocal policies, as OP proposed?
- munk-a 4y ago
  So uh - how is that Great Firewall thing in China legal then? Trade limitations have always and will always exist. Heck there are hundreds of limitations in trade between the US and Canada - including the complete illegality of Kinder Eggs in the US, which I still find hilarious.
paxys 4y ago
People are going to reply to you with the usual "we are better than them", "we are a democracy" etc., but reciprocity clauses are very common in areas like international trade, travel, disarmament treaties, emissions control and lots more. In fact China would never have been allowed into the WTO (which happened in 2001) had they not made sweeping changes to their economy and assured the world that they would compete on a fair playing field, rules that they still (mostly) have to follow today. Requiring that American software companies have the same opportunities in China as Chinese ones enjoy in the USA is a perfectly sane position to take. In fact it is the fair and democratic one. Of course politicians don't really understand tech enough to realize how quickly (and how unfairly) China is growing to dominate the space. > Same with housing, why can Chinese nationals buy housing here, while I can't do so there? Housing is a completely different conversation, and the answer there is that existing homeowners would never allow the influx of foreign cash into their local markets to stop, and they are the ones with all the influence in this country, not the renters or aspiring buyers.
- ajross 4y ago
  > reciprocity clauses are very common in areas like [...] Distributing software for you to run on your own hardware is speech, though, and it's protected by the first amendment. You can license the distribution of your own software if you want, but you can't tell me I can't give you software if you want it. Basically: how do you think this would work, in a way that wouldn't also make Linux or gcc or whatever available only at the whim of the government?
  - paxys 4y ago
    We aren't talking about TikTok as an open source software repository. Their registered business, operations, leases/property purchases, payroll, advertising, data mining, international currency transfer and lots more are all not covered by the first amendment and can absolutely be regulated under a million clauses.
    - ajross 4y ago
      I'd be OK with all of that. Sanctions are a thing. Regulation of data storage is a thing. There's space for debate here. But none of that involves logic like "You can't distribute software in my country if you don't let me distribute software in yours", which was the first amendment violation you started with.
toomanydoubts 4y ago
Besides what's been said already, did you consider that "the west" is a collection of countries from at least 3 continents, wgile China is a single country? Also the fact that the entire world relies on China is a pretty good place to start.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Because China is ruled by technocrats who are probably book-smarter than Western politicians. In the west you typically have to be rich to be a politician, in China you have to be smart, then you get rich(and ban the NYT when your corruption is uncovered).
- franklampard 4y ago
  Lololol techno what which one?
userbinator 4y ago
Because the opposite would be considered racism and xenophobia.
walls 4y ago
What happened to free speech being the bastion of America and the only thing that can counter misinformation and propaganda? Suddenly doesn't seem to work so well when a Chinese app is granted that privilege.
- didericis 4y ago
  Stealing information without user permission is not free speech.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    Tell that to Facebook and LinkedIn. I don't get the double standard. These practices should be illegal, full stop. Why is it ok for US companies to do the same kinds of things?
    - didericis 4y ago
      It is not a double standard. There are already legal and cultural limitations in the US that have much more respect for user consent, user privacy and intellectual property than in China. Any US company caught putting arbitrary keyloggers in products can and should be condemned. Companies still track large amounts of data and pull shady antics, but the big difference is there is a means of holding US companies to account if they violate privacy standards, not least of which is through uncensored condemnation and legal action. That is not possible in China. More stringent privacy norms and protections in the US would be welcomed. That doesn’t mean the status quo is comparable to China.
      - wfme 4y ago
        > the big difference is there is a means of holding US companies to account if they violate privacy standards Have yet to see this in practice. What usually happens is a bunch of articles are written "condemning" their actions, they are fined some ridiculously small amount and then business continues as usual. The most recent action that seems to have had a significant impact on how Facebook captures data is Apple's "Ask App Not to Track". This is not exactly a shining example of the how the US system protects users privacy as the action was taken by a company, not a regulator.
School-Cotton 4y ago
> how we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Because we are the West, and China is China. We have different laws and customs.
- lumost 4y ago
  Why does that mean that a Chinese social media app can capture data unlawfully under GDPR, CCPA or or other regulations?
  - rvz 4y ago
    Exactly. Given they are operating in countries like the EU, US, etc and they are doing the same privacy violations and actions like what Facebook did years ago but worse, and even after regulations such as GDPR, CCPA, etc and Facebook was fined in the billions by the FTC, TikTok should be no exception and must be fined in the billions for this invasive and repeated privacy violations. Nothing has changed, even after the invasive tracking done by Facebook, and Instagram.
  - 8note 4y ago
    You will find that HN is full of American business owners that are happy to unlawfully capture data protected by GDPR.
  - wfme 4y ago
    Any app built and run by any country can capture data unlawfully. The keyword is unlawfully.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    It doesn’t mean that, and the comment I was responding to wasn’t talking about that, but merely the fact that the app is Chinese.
  - nl 4y ago
    It doesn't. If that is happening then cases under those legislation would succeed. But those legislation don't somehow magically forbid practices that people on HN don't like.
tenpies 4y ago
Money. And I don't just mean the politicians. I mean downright to the pension funds, hedge funds, and retail investor. They are all long China and especially Chinese tech. If you start declaring war on Chinese tech you are going to obliterate a huge amount of money all to protect the privacy that US voters don't care about privacy in the least. So why would they do such a silly thing? National security? Please, the son of a sitting President is a crack user with huge ties to China. Nothing some Tiktor user could divulge through the in app browser could ever compare.
- chrischen 4y ago
  If you want to protect the privacy of users then protect the privacy of users. Protecting the privacy only when China is the one invading privacy is not protecting the privacy of users.
danield9tqh 4y ago
Sounds like the opposite of housing from a national security POV. If a Chinese national buys a house in the US, then the US has 'control' over their property. The US would want Chinese nationals to buy houses in the US.
- thevagrant 4y ago
  In some countries housing supply is limited and the housing market can be messed with by influx of foreign ownership. Possibly less of an issue with US due to size of the country. Still, I think if someone can buy land here, we should be able to buy land there (within reason)?
  - balls187 4y ago
    If the news is to be believed, housing supply is limited in the US. US Housing is generally a safe investment for foreign investors. Since US vestigial racist policies make it difficult to create dense, affordable housing, single family homes are in high demand and relatively limited supply.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Just tax the hell out of that property and use that money to build more housing. Much like many countries charge foreign students more and use that money to educate their own citizens.
jabbany 4y ago
There is an interesting meta discussion here but the parent is over-simplifying things. > How we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-Chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Easy. The laws are different. "Non-Chinese social media app"s are not banned in China, just that if you run one it need to be licensed (https://beian.miit.gov.cn/ https://beian.miit.gov.cn/) first before you can start servicing. Licensing is difficult since there's requirements about keeping data domestic, having physical presence should legal enforcement be necessary (i.e. there are people to arrest if something goes wrong), and complying with takedown requests (both copyright and political). Western big tech companies (rightfully) do not want to comply, so they do not get licenses, and thus have no presence. Attempting to "just provide service" without a license will result in blacklisting via the GFW as enforcement. "Allow a Chinese social media app in the west" -- this is also more complex. If TikTok or friends violate laws in the west they are also liable for any punishment. For example, TikTok and WeChat comply with the GDPR in Europe and keep EU data local to the EU. If they didn't they'd be looking at a potentially huge fine and possibly getting banned. Similarly they also comply with copyright stuff like DMCAs. If they didn't, the FBI can seize their domain and compel ISPs to not resolve it just like the GFW (this has precedent and has been done before). So the meta question becomes: Are the current protections in the west sufficient? To which the answer is probably no. But in any case, in the free world, whether a Chinese social media app's presence is allowed to be maintained should not be dictated by ideology, but rather through real demonstrated evidence of misbehavior and/or harm (which is why research like this is important).
- sva_ 4y ago
  I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think that Chinese apps should at least be held to the same standards, as they are there, and I think it's reasonable to assume that they currently aren't. The thing is, and I don't believe this to be controversial, that China has built a digital database of all (or most) of its citizens based on the data they collected. Now the question is, do they stop there, or do they have a file on all of us? The technology is cheap, and I think based on video data etc that they collect through apps like this, they might well build a social graph of the rest of the world (i.e. who does exist, what are their interests/beliefs/political affiliations, and what are the relations between those entities.) The repercussions of using such apps might be, that they have info on citizens in the rest of the world, which might allow them to nudge people into giving into their political goals (this has already been happening after people posted stuff critical of China on sites like Twitter) - and I think that we have to ask ourselves how that could threaten our democracy.
systemvoltage 4y ago
It's amazing. Tiktok has been HN's darling for the longest.
- munk-a 4y ago
  We must be on different HNs because every time I see Tiktok brought up a bunch of people complain about privacy and the culture on the platform.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    No way, it used to be almost universally praised here 2-3 years ago. Not so much recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133017
nopenopenopeno 4y ago
The corporations that control our government depend on China’s cheap labor. It’s as simple as that.
_carbyau_ 4y ago
Does it bother the west's rich and/or powerful? If not, it doesn't matter in the West apparently. China and the West are both controlled by factors not really in line with helping the stereotypical Common Person.
munk-a 4y ago
Because of unfortunate politics - young people are thriving on TikTok so all discussions on limiting the platform under Trump were reasonably responded to with outcries about censorship. I think it's possible some change could happen under the current administration's watch (since it wouldn't be viewed as a free-speech crackdown) but there doesn't seem to be much interest now that it's just about security and not also about punishing your political opponents.
gentleman11 4y ago
Who cares? This is about privacy and security. Not a “why can’t we do it in your country back to you” argument
unclebucknasty 4y ago
All of this. And, to be clear, much of that home purchasing is for investment purposes (vs simply Chinese nationals with residences here). And, don't forget farmland. Seems we'll look back on all of this at some point and decide maybe it wasn't the best idea.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > Seems we'll look back on all of this at some point and decide maybe it wasn't the best idea. If that happens, I imagine our Congress will brew up some justification for seizing all that Chinese owned property.
balls187 4y ago
> why can [XXX] nationals buy housing here, while I can't do so there? Simply because when XXX nationals come with all cash offers and willing to pay above market & waive all contingencies, sellers are willing to sell. It just so happens that certain nationals are more prone to having that sort of money than others.
- sva_ 4y ago
  No, it isn't about people being more prone to buy property in one place, rather than another. Let x be a any number in [0, infty), I literally can not buy property in China for any x.
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    > The answer is yes, foreigners are allowed to purchase property in China! The essential requirement is that you have studied or worked in China for at least one year on a residence permit. Foreigners are allowed to only own one residential property for dwelling purposes. You may not rent out the property or act as a landlord. Requirements and restrictions may differ in different provinces and cities. For example, Shanghai requires that non-Shanghai hukou families, including foreigners, have to provide proof of income tax or social insurance to the local government. http://anychinavisa.com/news/can-foreigners-buy-a-house-in-china/ http://anychinavisa.com/news/can-foreigners-buy-a-house-in-c... So to be more precise what you actually can't do is speculate in Chinese real estate.
    - sva_ 4y ago
      You can not actually buy property in China, you can only lease it for a number of years, and it will always be held by the government of China (you can easily search this on the web). And after some number of years, it'll go back to them, and you'll have nothing.
  - balls187 4y ago
    I think you missed my point. The US is a capitalist society; if you have sufficient money US National or not, you have nearly carte blanche to do what you want. Regardless of China et al laws for foreign home ownership, the US is very permissible simply because money.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
I would zoom out a bit. For example, when the media in The West "front pages" the smog in Beijing keep in mind The West owns a good part of that. It's not like what's manufactured in China stays in China. I would presume their water ways are nasty as well. Just one example mind you. The point is, there are other imbalances. That's not to say TikTok should get a free pass, only that it's complicated than an app for app comparison.
h8liu 4y ago
Because only US can buy cheap goods and services from the world with printed paper called dollars.
Shank 4y ago
Honestly, this type of discussion is seriously irritating, because it implies that TikTok is doing something unique that other apps aren't doing. Just as the article demonstrates, many western countries do the exact same thing that TikTok does, except TikTok seemingly takes it one step further (probably because of shoddy programming). Applying geographic-based arguments to technology is just a bandaid. The problem needs to be solved in all situations, not just in situations where people aren't politically happy. Any company injecting keyloggers or monitoring systems into web content should be subject to the same equally damning judgement. Just because it's China doesn't make keylogging bad. Keylogging is bad because keylogging is bad. Companies like Fullstory [0] and Hotjar [1] are used all over the western internet and effectively act as full session recorders. Sure, used well they can be used for analytics, but you could just as easily inject Fullstory or Hotjar into an in-app browser and suddenly record all data a user does. Should this be possible? No. Does it help to just ban China? I mean sure, but why should you be okay with a western company doing it? TikTok is a short video app used mostly by younger generations. It produces highly accurate recommendations for videos to watch. We're not talking about something like a banking app, a healthcare app, or even a messaging app. It's a video-based social network. There are bigger fish to fry than TikTok in almost every single possible category of app. Yet, TikTok is always brought up because it's from China. [0]: https://www.fullstory.com/ https://www.fullstory.com/ [1]: https://www.hotjar.com/ https://www.hotjar.com/
- PraetorianGourd 4y ago
  TikTok is brought up because it has an insane amount of influence on the culture and identity of a huge swath of people. Do you seriously believe that China, or any country, would not want to leverage such influence to persuade or alter the culture or a potential advisory? We all shit our pants because Russia used Meta, and American company, to influence the 2020 election. Imagine the same amount of data, a more accurate algorithm, and entirely within the control of foreign actors. It doesn't matter if it is China or Colombia or Japan, a foreign company have that much influence over the opinions citizens of a country is dangerous.
  - chrischen 4y ago
candiddevmike 4y ago
What I don't understand is why Google has let YouTube become one big advertisement for TikTok. Every video I watch on YouTube is preceded by a TikTok ad.
pessimizer 4y ago
If non-Chinese companies are willing to abide by Chinese laws (including those about censorship, etc.), they'll be able to operate in China. Chinese social media apps abide by US regulations around social media and private surveillance, which are almost nonexistent, so they can operate in the US. The only way to prevent this is to create laws specifically targeting the Chinese for being Chinese, because 1) the chance for domestic regulation on social media and surveillance is very low, and 2) any regulation we're likely to pass would be about "spreading misinformation" and "foreign interference," so would probably end up closely resembling Chinese regulations.
Spooky23 4y ago
I can’t understand how we allowed every industry to wholesale migrate to China and write off every manufacturing method and trade secret. The answer both of our questions is of course money. Our version of capitalism is dominated by cult-like disciples of financial management principles. If the US fucks with TikTok, well maybe they’ll mess with Office 365.
akomtu 4y ago
Well, it's gonna cost me many downvotes, but this needs to be said. CCP has a tight grip on many US officials. The two publicly known cases are Pelosi's son and Biden's son, who are prominent investors, board members even, in chinese companies. That's public knowledge, but I bet it's the tip of the iceberg.
dangerwill 4y ago
So, I see this bandied about a lot, but I don't see the big deal in being spied on by a government that has 0 say in my entire hemisphere? Like, I have much bigger concerns about spying done on behalf of the five eyes alliance than China (obviously this would be the opposite if I was living in China). What are they going to do with my silly viewing habits, sell my data to advertisers? Well, same deal with youtube, google, fb, insta, whatsapp, etc. I'm not saying you are coming at this from a nationalistic point of view but I get that vibe from the ease of which tiktok is disdained on HN. And on the merits, it is unhealthy like all social media, but it still feels so much more fun and worthwhile than facebook or insta where everything feels like a competition to have the best life. So much of Tiktok still feels like vine 2.0
- theteapot 4y ago
  > So, I see this bandied about a lot, but I don't see the big deal in being spied on by a government that has 0 say in my entire hemisphere? You idiot.
- creato 4y ago
  All china has to do to have a serious negative impact on our society is give a slight boost to moronic, antisocial content (tide pod challenge or mass robbery anyone?), and a slight penalty to constructive, educational content. It would be basically impossible to detect this. Remember that this is a country that regularly threatens a war that would likely involve the US.
  - xnx 4y ago
    After having spent some time with senior citizens, it's really hard to imagine that Tiktok could ever come close to having as much as a "serious negative impact" on US society as Fox News.
cute_boi 4y ago
So, what would be the difference between us and them? There is a reason why our governance is better than them. Also, if you don't know facebook, instagram also have same issue as tiktok. Maybe government should enforce privacy requirement for all apps including facebook and instagram instead of blanket banning Chinese apps.
lvturner 4y ago
Amusingly, TikTok isn't available in China - only DouYin, which is similar but separate. I'm not 100% sure on this at this point, but I think if Facebook/Google/etc were willing to do the same they would be allowed in China too, but as it stands they can't/won't comply with Chinese law (I may be mistaken on this, haven't read up on the topic in quite some time)
- daniel_iversen 4y ago
  Yeah, and both TikTok and DouYin are owned by ByteDance. In fact didn't Google on occasion create a crippled/censored version of its search for some time in mainland China or Hong Kong or something?
  - lvturner 4y ago
    I think they did, but then found it too much effort to maintain (I think there was also some hacking scandal? I forget) For what it's worth HK internet presently uncensored, though ironically TikTok pulled out of the HK market as they felt it was too expensive to comply with Hong Kong laws given the size of the available market here. DouYin is still available in HK though -- not sure if DouYin is available in US/Euro market or not??
    - woutr_be 4y ago
      I believe they pulled out because of the new national security law, which allows police to request data without any warrants. It’s some somewhat ironic, because TikTok is Chinese owned, and so is the NSL.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
drnonsense42 4y ago
Trump tried to ban TikTok (and quite a lot more), but he’s orange and bad, so Biden repealed it. And tariffs are racist, so there’s that. America is not functioning well at this point and nothing indicates it will improve.
Ekaros 4y ago
Because west operate under different systems. West has for while being about free trade free market global capitalism. Where as China is using much more controlled approach. Fundamentally west can't get too faraway from these ideals or it will end up destroying its hegemony. Huawei has already been banned, but what comes after social media? And if some action is taken, will other countries start banning western imports specially cultural and services?

by sva_ 4y ago

baby 4y ago

We’re not a dictatorship?

treeman79 4y ago
Yet
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Just two more years and we have another chance to reverse course.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ta8645 4y ago
mjmsmith 4y ago
This nutjob honeypot tastes delicious.

withinboredom 4y ago

Because it’s a sovereign country that makes its own rules? So, basically the same reason that you can’t just move to Italy because you feel like it.

sva_ 4y ago
As a matter of fact, I can, as a European citizen (basically)[0]. [0] https://www.unipi.it/index.php/welcome-and-support/item/7413-right-of-entry-and-residence-for-eu-residents https://www.unipi.it/index.php/welcome-and-support/item/7413...
noslenwerdna 4y ago
And what is wrong with sovereign countries adopting reciprocal policies, as OP proposed?
munk-a 4y ago
So uh - how is that Great Firewall thing in China legal then? Trade limitations have always and will always exist. Heck there are hundreds of limitations in trade between the US and Canada - including the complete illegality of Kinder Eggs in the US, which I still find hilarious.

paxys 4y ago

People are going to reply to you with the usual "we are better than them", "we are a democracy" etc., but reciprocity clauses are very common in areas like international trade, travel, disarmament treaties, emissions control and lots more. In fact China would never have been allowed into the WTO (which happened in 2001) had they not made sweeping changes to their economy and assured the world that they would compete on a fair playing field, rules that they still (mostly) have to follow today. Requiring that American software companies have the same opportunities in China as Chinese ones enjoy in the USA is a perfectly sane position to take. In fact it is the fair and democratic one. Of course politicians don't really understand tech enough to realize how quickly (and how unfairly) China is growing to dominate the space. > Same with housing, why can Chinese nationals buy housing here, while I can't do so there? Housing is a completely different conversation, and the answer there is that existing homeowners would never allow the influx of foreign cash into their local markets to stop, and they are the ones with all the influence in this country, not the renters or aspiring buyers.

ajross 4y ago
> reciprocity clauses are very common in areas like [...] Distributing software for you to run on your own hardware is speech, though, and it's protected by the first amendment. You can license the distribution of your own software if you want, but you can't tell me I can't give you software if you want it. Basically: how do you think this would work, in a way that wouldn't also make Linux or gcc or whatever available only at the whim of the government?
- paxys 4y ago
  We aren't talking about TikTok as an open source software repository. Their registered business, operations, leases/property purchases, payroll, advertising, data mining, international currency transfer and lots more are all not covered by the first amendment and can absolutely be regulated under a million clauses.
  - ajross 4y ago
    I'd be OK with all of that. Sanctions are a thing. Regulation of data storage is a thing. There's space for debate here. But none of that involves logic like "You can't distribute software in my country if you don't let me distribute software in yours", which was the first amendment violation you started with.

toomanydoubts 4y ago

Besides what's been said already, did you consider that "the west" is a collection of countries from at least 3 continents, wgile China is a single country? Also the fact that the entire world relies on China is a pretty good place to start.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Because China is ruled by technocrats who are probably book-smarter than Western politicians. In the west you typically have to be rich to be a politician, in China you have to be smart, then you get rich(and ban the NYT when your corruption is uncovered).

franklampard 4y ago
Lololol techno what which one?

userbinator 4y ago

Because the opposite would be considered racism and xenophobia.

walls 4y ago

What happened to free speech being the bastion of America and the only thing that can counter misinformation and propaganda? Suddenly doesn't seem to work so well when a Chinese app is granted that privilege.

didericis 4y ago
Stealing information without user permission is not free speech.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Tell that to Facebook and LinkedIn. I don't get the double standard. These practices should be illegal, full stop. Why is it ok for US companies to do the same kinds of things?
  - didericis 4y ago
    It is not a double standard. There are already legal and cultural limitations in the US that have much more respect for user consent, user privacy and intellectual property than in China. Any US company caught putting arbitrary keyloggers in products can and should be condemned. Companies still track large amounts of data and pull shady antics, but the big difference is there is a means of holding US companies to account if they violate privacy standards, not least of which is through uncensored condemnation and legal action. That is not possible in China. More stringent privacy norms and protections in the US would be welcomed. That doesn’t mean the status quo is comparable to China.
    - wfme 4y ago
      > the big difference is there is a means of holding US companies to account if they violate privacy standards Have yet to see this in practice. What usually happens is a bunch of articles are written "condemning" their actions, they are fined some ridiculously small amount and then business continues as usual. The most recent action that seems to have had a significant impact on how Facebook captures data is Apple's "Ask App Not to Track". This is not exactly a shining example of the how the US system protects users privacy as the action was taken by a company, not a regulator.

School-Cotton 4y ago

> how we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Because we are the West, and China is China. We have different laws and customs.

lumost 4y ago
Why does that mean that a Chinese social media app can capture data unlawfully under GDPR, CCPA or or other regulations?
- rvz 4y ago
  Exactly. Given they are operating in countries like the EU, US, etc and they are doing the same privacy violations and actions like what Facebook did years ago but worse, and even after regulations such as GDPR, CCPA, etc and Facebook was fined in the billions by the FTC, TikTok should be no exception and must be fined in the billions for this invasive and repeated privacy violations. Nothing has changed, even after the invasive tracking done by Facebook, and Instagram.
- 8note 4y ago
  You will find that HN is full of American business owners that are happy to unlawfully capture data protected by GDPR.
- wfme 4y ago
  Any app built and run by any country can capture data unlawfully. The keyword is unlawfully.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  It doesn’t mean that, and the comment I was responding to wasn’t talking about that, but merely the fact that the app is Chinese.
- nl 4y ago
  It doesn't. If that is happening then cases under those legislation would succeed. But those legislation don't somehow magically forbid practices that people on HN don't like.

tenpies 4y ago

Money. And I don't just mean the politicians. I mean downright to the pension funds, hedge funds, and retail investor. They are all long China and especially Chinese tech. If you start declaring war on Chinese tech you are going to obliterate a huge amount of money all to protect the privacy that US voters don't care about privacy in the least. So why would they do such a silly thing? National security? Please, the son of a sitting President is a crack user with huge ties to China. Nothing some Tiktor user could divulge through the in app browser could ever compare.

chrischen 4y ago
If you want to protect the privacy of users then protect the privacy of users. Protecting the privacy only when China is the one invading privacy is not protecting the privacy of users.

danield9tqh 4y ago

Sounds like the opposite of housing from a national security POV. If a Chinese national buys a house in the US, then the US has 'control' over their property. The US would want Chinese nationals to buy houses in the US.

thevagrant 4y ago
In some countries housing supply is limited and the housing market can be messed with by influx of foreign ownership. Possibly less of an issue with US due to size of the country. Still, I think if someone can buy land here, we should be able to buy land there (within reason)?
- balls187 4y ago
  If the news is to be believed, housing supply is limited in the US. US Housing is generally a safe investment for foreign investors. Since US vestigial racist policies make it difficult to create dense, affordable housing, single family homes are in high demand and relatively limited supply.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Just tax the hell out of that property and use that money to build more housing. Much like many countries charge foreign students more and use that money to educate their own citizens.

jabbany 4y ago

There is an interesting meta discussion here but the parent is over-simplifying things. > How we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-Chinese social media apps aren't allowed there? Easy. The laws are different. "Non-Chinese social media app"s are not banned in China, just that if you run one it need to be licensed (https://beian.miit.gov.cn/ https://beian.miit.gov.cn/) first before you can start servicing. Licensing is difficult since there's requirements about keeping data domestic, having physical presence should legal enforcement be necessary (i.e. there are people to arrest if something goes wrong), and complying with takedown requests (both copyright and political). Western big tech companies (rightfully) do not want to comply, so they do not get licenses, and thus have no presence. Attempting to "just provide service" without a license will result in blacklisting via the GFW as enforcement. "Allow a Chinese social media app in the west" -- this is also more complex. If TikTok or friends violate laws in the west they are also liable for any punishment. For example, TikTok and WeChat comply with the GDPR in Europe and keep EU data local to the EU. If they didn't they'd be looking at a potentially huge fine and possibly getting banned. Similarly they also comply with copyright stuff like DMCAs. If they didn't, the FBI can seize their domain and compel ISPs to not resolve it just like the GFW (this has precedent and has been done before). So the meta question becomes: Are the current protections in the west sufficient? To which the answer is probably no. But in any case, in the free world, whether a Chinese social media app's presence is allowed to be maintained should not be dictated by ideology, but rather through real demonstrated evidence of misbehavior and/or harm (which is why research like this is important).

sva_ 4y ago
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think that Chinese apps should at least be held to the same standards, as they are there, and I think it's reasonable to assume that they currently aren't. The thing is, and I don't believe this to be controversial, that China has built a digital database of all (or most) of its citizens based on the data they collected. Now the question is, do they stop there, or do they have a file on all of us? The technology is cheap, and I think based on video data etc that they collect through apps like this, they might well build a social graph of the rest of the world (i.e. who does exist, what are their interests/beliefs/political affiliations, and what are the relations between those entities.) The repercussions of using such apps might be, that they have info on citizens in the rest of the world, which might allow them to nudge people into giving into their political goals (this has already been happening after people posted stuff critical of China on sites like Twitter) - and I think that we have to ask ourselves how that could threaten our democracy.

systemvoltage 4y ago

It's amazing. Tiktok has been HN's darling for the longest.

munk-a 4y ago
We must be on different HNs because every time I see Tiktok brought up a bunch of people complain about privacy and the culture on the platform.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  No way, it used to be almost universally praised here 2-3 years ago. Not so much recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133017

nopenopenopeno 4y ago

The corporations that control our government depend on China’s cheap labor. It’s as simple as that.

_carbyau_ 4y ago

Does it bother the west's rich and/or powerful? If not, it doesn't matter in the West apparently. China and the West are both controlled by factors not really in line with helping the stereotypical Common Person.

munk-a 4y ago

Because of unfortunate politics - young people are thriving on TikTok so all discussions on limiting the platform under Trump were reasonably responded to with outcries about censorship. I think it's possible some change could happen under the current administration's watch (since it wouldn't be viewed as a free-speech crackdown) but there doesn't seem to be much interest now that it's just about security and not also about punishing your political opponents.

gentleman11 4y ago

Who cares? This is about privacy and security. Not a “why can’t we do it in your country back to you” argument

unclebucknasty 4y ago

All of this. And, to be clear, much of that home purchasing is for investment purposes (vs simply Chinese nationals with residences here). And, don't forget farmland. Seems we'll look back on all of this at some point and decide maybe it wasn't the best idea.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> Seems we'll look back on all of this at some point and decide maybe it wasn't the best idea. If that happens, I imagine our Congress will brew up some justification for seizing all that Chinese owned property.

balls187 4y ago

> why can [XXX] nationals buy housing here, while I can't do so there? Simply because when XXX nationals come with all cash offers and willing to pay above market & waive all contingencies, sellers are willing to sell. It just so happens that certain nationals are more prone to having that sort of money than others.

sva_ 4y ago
No, it isn't about people being more prone to buy property in one place, rather than another. Let x be a any number in [0, infty), I literally can not buy property in China for any x.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  > The answer is yes, foreigners are allowed to purchase property in China! The essential requirement is that you have studied or worked in China for at least one year on a residence permit. Foreigners are allowed to only own one residential property for dwelling purposes. You may not rent out the property or act as a landlord. Requirements and restrictions may differ in different provinces and cities. For example, Shanghai requires that non-Shanghai hukou families, including foreigners, have to provide proof of income tax or social insurance to the local government. http://anychinavisa.com/news/can-foreigners-buy-a-house-in-china/ http://anychinavisa.com/news/can-foreigners-buy-a-house-in-c... So to be more precise what you actually can't do is speculate in Chinese real estate.
  - sva_ 4y ago
    You can not actually buy property in China, you can only lease it for a number of years, and it will always be held by the government of China (you can easily search this on the web). And after some number of years, it'll go back to them, and you'll have nothing.
- balls187 4y ago
  I think you missed my point. The US is a capitalist society; if you have sufficient money US National or not, you have nearly carte blanche to do what you want. Regardless of China et al laws for foreign home ownership, the US is very permissible simply because money.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

I would zoom out a bit. For example, when the media in The West "front pages" the smog in Beijing keep in mind The West owns a good part of that. It's not like what's manufactured in China stays in China. I would presume their water ways are nasty as well. Just one example mind you. The point is, there are other imbalances. That's not to say TikTok should get a free pass, only that it's complicated than an app for app comparison.

h8liu 4y ago

Because only US can buy cheap goods and services from the world with printed paper called dollars.

Shank 4y ago

Honestly, this type of discussion is seriously irritating, because it implies that TikTok is doing something unique that other apps aren't doing. Just as the article demonstrates, many western countries do the exact same thing that TikTok does, except TikTok seemingly takes it one step further (probably because of shoddy programming). Applying geographic-based arguments to technology is just a bandaid. The problem needs to be solved in all situations, not just in situations where people aren't politically happy. Any company injecting keyloggers or monitoring systems into web content should be subject to the same equally damning judgement. Just because it's China doesn't make keylogging bad. Keylogging is bad because keylogging is bad. Companies like Fullstory [0] and Hotjar [1] are used all over the western internet and effectively act as full session recorders. Sure, used well they can be used for analytics, but you could just as easily inject Fullstory or Hotjar into an in-app browser and suddenly record all data a user does. Should this be possible? No. Does it help to just ban China? I mean sure, but why should you be okay with a western company doing it? TikTok is a short video app used mostly by younger generations. It produces highly accurate recommendations for videos to watch. We're not talking about something like a banking app, a healthcare app, or even a messaging app. It's a video-based social network. There are bigger fish to fry than TikTok in almost every single possible category of app. Yet, TikTok is always brought up because it's from China. [0]: https://www.fullstory.com/ https://www.fullstory.com/ [1]: https://www.hotjar.com/ https://www.hotjar.com/

PraetorianGourd 4y ago
TikTok is brought up because it has an insane amount of influence on the culture and identity of a huge swath of people. Do you seriously believe that China, or any country, would not want to leverage such influence to persuade or alter the culture or a potential advisory? We all shit our pants because Russia used Meta, and American company, to influence the 2020 election. Imagine the same amount of data, a more accurate algorithm, and entirely within the control of foreign actors. It doesn't matter if it is China or Colombia or Japan, a foreign company have that much influence over the opinions citizens of a country is dangerous.
- chrischen 4y ago

candiddevmike 4y ago

What I don't understand is why Google has let YouTube become one big advertisement for TikTok. Every video I watch on YouTube is preceded by a TikTok ad.

pessimizer 4y ago

If non-Chinese companies are willing to abide by Chinese laws (including those about censorship, etc.), they'll be able to operate in China. Chinese social media apps abide by US regulations around social media and private surveillance, which are almost nonexistent, so they can operate in the US. The only way to prevent this is to create laws specifically targeting the Chinese for being Chinese, because 1) the chance for domestic regulation on social media and surveillance is very low, and 2) any regulation we're likely to pass would be about "spreading misinformation" and "foreign interference," so would probably end up closely resembling Chinese regulations.

Spooky23 4y ago

I can’t understand how we allowed every industry to wholesale migrate to China and write off every manufacturing method and trade secret. The answer both of our questions is of course money. Our version of capitalism is dominated by cult-like disciples of financial management principles. If the US fucks with TikTok, well maybe they’ll mess with Office 365.

akomtu 4y ago

Well, it's gonna cost me many downvotes, but this needs to be said. CCP has a tight grip on many US officials. The two publicly known cases are Pelosi's son and Biden's son, who are prominent investors, board members even, in chinese companies. That's public knowledge, but I bet it's the tip of the iceberg.

dangerwill 4y ago

So, I see this bandied about a lot, but I don't see the big deal in being spied on by a government that has 0 say in my entire hemisphere? Like, I have much bigger concerns about spying done on behalf of the five eyes alliance than China (obviously this would be the opposite if I was living in China). What are they going to do with my silly viewing habits, sell my data to advertisers? Well, same deal with youtube, google, fb, insta, whatsapp, etc. I'm not saying you are coming at this from a nationalistic point of view but I get that vibe from the ease of which tiktok is disdained on HN. And on the merits, it is unhealthy like all social media, but it still feels so much more fun and worthwhile than facebook or insta where everything feels like a competition to have the best life. So much of Tiktok still feels like vine 2.0

theteapot 4y ago
> So, I see this bandied about a lot, but I don't see the big deal in being spied on by a government that has 0 say in my entire hemisphere? You idiot.
creato 4y ago
All china has to do to have a serious negative impact on our society is give a slight boost to moronic, antisocial content (tide pod challenge or mass robbery anyone?), and a slight penalty to constructive, educational content. It would be basically impossible to detect this. Remember that this is a country that regularly threatens a war that would likely involve the US.
- xnx 4y ago
  After having spent some time with senior citizens, it's really hard to imagine that Tiktok could ever come close to having as much as a "serious negative impact" on US society as Fox News.

cute_boi 4y ago

So, what would be the difference between us and them? There is a reason why our governance is better than them. Also, if you don't know facebook, instagram also have same issue as tiktok. Maybe government should enforce privacy requirement for all apps including facebook and instagram instead of blanket banning Chinese apps.

lvturner 4y ago

Amusingly, TikTok isn't available in China - only DouYin, which is similar but separate. I'm not 100% sure on this at this point, but I think if Facebook/Google/etc were willing to do the same they would be allowed in China too, but as it stands they can't/won't comply with Chinese law (I may be mistaken on this, haven't read up on the topic in quite some time)

daniel_iversen 4y ago
Yeah, and both TikTok and DouYin are owned by ByteDance. In fact didn't Google on occasion create a crippled/censored version of its search for some time in mainland China or Hong Kong or something?
- lvturner 4y ago
  I think they did, but then found it too much effort to maintain (I think there was also some hacking scandal? I forget) For what it's worth HK internet presently uncensored, though ironically TikTok pulled out of the HK market as they felt it was too expensive to comply with Hong Kong laws given the size of the available market here. DouYin is still available in HK though -- not sure if DouYin is available in US/Euro market or not??
  - woutr_be 4y ago
    I believe they pulled out because of the new national security law, which allows police to request data without any warrants. It’s some somewhat ironic, because TikTok is Chinese owned, and so is the NSL.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

drnonsense42 4y ago

Trump tried to ban TikTok (and quite a lot more), but he’s orange and bad, so Biden repealed it. And tariffs are racist, so there’s that. America is not functioning well at this point and nothing indicates it will improve.

Ekaros 4y ago

Because west operate under different systems. West has for while being about free trade free market global capitalism. Where as China is using much more controlled approach. Fundamentally west can't get too faraway from these ideals or it will end up destroying its hegemony. Huawei has already been banned, but what comes after social media? And if some action is taken, will other countries start banning western imports specially cultural and services?