9 ms·

This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. Instant bank transfers. Because of this you csn just scan the QR code of your taxi, the fruit s

This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. Instant bank transfers. Because of this you csn just scan the QR code of your taxi, the fruit seller on the street, transfer to your friends. Everyone gets it instantly. Now this is not third party services. It’s bank account to bank account. As a result things like PayPal or Cash app make no sense in this part of the world and have no uptake here. In fact it’s a downgrade to use those kinds of services. Remembering the bank issues in North America is quite painful. Hope it really happens next year.

westurner 4y ago
FedNow is for US, interbank transactions only. Do your country's favorite banks implement ILP Interledger Protocol; to solve for more than just banks' domestic transactions between themselves? https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/blob/master/0001-interledger-architecture/0001-interledger-architecture.md#interledger-protocol-suite https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/blob/master/0001-interle...
scottiebarnes 4y ago
> Now this is not third party services. It’s bank account to bank account. As a result things like PayPal or Cash app make no sense in this part of the world and have no uptake here. Aren't WeChat Pay and AliPay basically embedded versions of paypal/cash app?
- navanchauhan 4y ago
  I feel like they are talking about the UPI (unified payment interface) that exists in India. It works way better than Zelle because you don’t need to use your bank’s app (you can if you want to, but most people use PayTM/Google Pay/PhonePe), and you can add multiple bank accounts in your preferred UPI client. You just get a UPI ID that looks like whatever@yourapporbank. Then for online payments you can just enter that ID and approve/deny the transaction request in your UPI client. You could also just generate a QR code for that transaction and scan it with the UPI client I see that a lot of people are unaware about UPI on HN, I might summarise my experience in a separate post and comparing it to Zelle
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    > I see that a lot of people are unaware about UPI on HN, I might summarise my experience in a separate post and comparing it to Zelle Please do! I would buy you a coffee or similar for doing so. Likewise if someone wants to create and maintain a Wikipedia page listing instant payment systems and their details (because FiServ keeps taking down their marketing enumerating this information while also excluding it back from Wayback Machine[1]), I'd be willing to throw some fiat at that. [1] https://www.fisglobal.com/en/flavors-of-fast https://www.fisglobal.com/en/flavors-of-fast (404s, don't bother clicking, Modern Treasury has some content marketing that refers to it)
    - ra7 4y ago
      Previous UPI discussion on HN from 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24094323 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24094323. It links to posts explaining UPI in detail.
- j16sdiz 4y ago
  WeChat and AliPay exist because China had the same problem. In India, Singapore, Hong Kong, this is a solved problem.
RC_ITR 4y ago
I hear this a lot, but Visa/MC do the exact same thing (though it has died down now that Westerners see universal NFC pay as rightly superior to QR codes) And before you tell me they charge for it, I agree they do, but I also get fraud protection that's 1000x better than anything in SEA or on Venmo/Cash app.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  > universal NFC pay as rightly superior to QR codes Why though? You can print out QRs and send them around digitally. No extra tech is needed to handle QRs. Why is NFC better?
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Does anyone seriously think QR codes will still be around in 10 years? They always struck me as clunky. They often don't work, require holding your phone in awkward positions for uncomfortably long periods of time and in many circumstances (e.g. a cashier wishing to expose a dynamically generated QR code to a customer) aren't practical. It's only because we haven't come up with cheap/reliable alternatives that all manufacturers agree to support that they're still in use.
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      Oh I understand now. It's the fault of the implementation of the QR reader that you use. For example all UPI apps have near instant qr recognition at any angle. In fact on my phone, it takes longer for the camera to start than for the QR recognition to finish. I also think there are a lot of things that QRs can do but NFC cannot. But the opposite is not true
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        Currently, yes. But in principle NFC or alternatives (that could be cheaply/ instantly generated anywhere, including by non-digital physical objects like pieces of paper) should be better and I'm willing to bet will be in the foreseeable future.
paxys 4y ago
This will never happen in North America because the existing payments establishment is collectively worth trillions of dollars (think Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Square, Stripe, all credit card issuing banks, all smaller second and third degree players) and will be ready to spend a big chunk of it to lobby and keep themselves relevant. Look at the case with tax filings, for example. The US government will never be permitted to enter a business area and displace existing corporations regardless of whether it makes life easier for citizens or not.
- srhngpr 4y ago
  This has existed in Canada for a very long time via Interac e-Transfers and it doesn't cost anything. You can send money instantly from one bank to any other bank. You do this by sending to someone's email or phone number. The recipient can setup auto-deposit so the money is deposited instantly. For this reason, Venmo, Cash App, etc. makes no sense in Canada either.
  - 1-more 4y ago
    Zelle is roughly that in the US. Where Venmo is an intermediary that makes money by having your money before you take the extra step to transfer to your bank (for free in 3 days or instantly for a fee), Zelle is bank account to bank account. Transfers with it show up as debit card transactions in my statement, and I can look people up with phone or email.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    Interac is not really the same thing. It's much closer to Venmo, but with more integration with your bank. Mostly because not all banks are actually in the interac network and the transfers are between interac accounts, not bank accounts. You can set it up to autodeposit but it's still a "third" party layer more than actual interbank transfers.
    - aceofspades19 4y ago
      What Canadian banks are not in the Interac network?
legitster 4y ago
> Everyone gets it instantly. I have to believe that there is constant, baseline fraud that everyone in these areas puts up with. In the US, if someone steals my phone or credit card, or intercepts my payments in any way, I pretty much expect to get all my money back. When payments are instant, what's there to stop scammers and fraudsters disappearing with my money?
- jazzkingrt 4y ago
  I'm not an expert in this area. But a fairer comparison would be a US service like Venmo. In my experience Fraudulent payments with venmo are much harder to recover. I think a lot of fraud prevention tech can reasonably be done in a matter of seconds. FedNow also proposes to be domestic only for the time being, which means the recipient accounts are in US jurisdiction and easier to shut down and prosecute. Finally, there's no reason a wait-period/cooldown can't be implemented in another layer.
  - legitster 4y ago
    > easier to shut down and prosecute The problem is when someone spins up a scam account, gets a fraudulent payment, and then cashes it and shuts down the account. If they already have the money in cash, it may be impossible to prosecute. Any fraud prevention is going to have to be privacy intrusive by it's nature.
- davchana 4y ago
  There is a constant need of OTP for every transaction. That sms says again and again Do not share it with anybody or, something similar to that. Instant transfers are only from bank to bank accounts, and not to any personal wallets. Banks have strict KYC requirements to get the documents again every few years. So whoever account is getting the money, bank gas most of their information. So even after all those multiple warnings, if somebody gets frauded (which happens, because people get greedy, they pay a small amount to get a bigger prize, or a work from home job etc scams), police in some places now have IT Crime cell, which follows up with banks and try to recover the money. No guarantee. But there is no constant stream of fraud anymore thatln what happens here in US with people who fall for scams.
beorno 4y ago
Similar to what China did in 1994? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_China#Electronic_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_China#Electronic_ba...
_8j50 4y ago
The problem in east asia is now you are beholden to smartphones. You can't even give money to a street beggar without a smartphone. The only convenience added by their way is qrcode scanning as opposed to typing up a recipient name. Which I admit is verh nice so long as they mandate accepting cash payments as a condition of a business participating in commerce. Every transaction you make is tracked and being banned from that app means you can't even buy basic survival items and services like food, shelter and even public toilet access lol. You can't even beg people for money because you are banned and your account is tied to your government ID. You effectively accept wepay or whatever monopoly app as your master. Freaky stuff. No thanks, cash is still nicer and convenient (to consumer not merchant).
m463 4y ago
I think fraud would be a problem. I remember reading Matt Ridley's book "The Rational Optimist" and he said that society only progresses when we trade, and we only trade productively when we have trust. So basically I think there must be trust otherwise it will hamper the growth of society.
- dannyincolor 4y ago
  So, the current situation if you get scammed via Venmo/PayPal or other electronic payment methods is for the FBI / local law enforcement to subpoena the provider for records about the incident. Now, imagine all that data is sitting on Federal servers by default. No subpoena required, and fraud systems would be integrated directly with investigative services at the Federal level. This integration should strike fear in the heart of anyone who currently scams via 3rd-party payment providers. I am bothered that fraud isn't directly addressed in this page, but it's only an FAQ and it'd be silly to think the Fed wouldn't build industry standard (or better) fraud protections into a system they're building from scratch.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    No, the current situation if you get scammed via a credit card or PayPal is that you file a chargeback, and PP/card company reverses the transaction, because withdrawing money takes time. And if the transaction is not reversible, then PP/CC company take the hit on their own bottom line. Is the federal government going to take on that risk? What makes you think they can afford to hire programmers who are skilled enough to build out a sophisticated fraud detection system? The highest GS pay scale is lower than what a new grad makes at Stripe/PayPal.
    - astrange 4y ago
      > The highest GS pay scale is lower than what a new grad makes at Stripe/PayPal. It's better if you compare benefits and cost of living. Or if Stripe fires you because your manager didn't like that you tweeted a joke about Elon Musk once (apparently this happens).
happyopossum 4y ago
> This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. > Instant bank transfers. Really? One of the BEST things? That sets a pretty darned low bar.. I mean, I've never once been even remotely inconvenienced by the US way of handling money and payments.
- VHRanger 4y ago
  I imagine your payments experience is largely as a retail consumer then
- eric4smith 4y ago
  Yes. It's one of the best things. The first time you are sitting with your friend and you want to transfer some money to them - and they get it as soon as you tap the button in your bank app -- you will get it. It's normal to people in Asia. But weird to people in the USA and Canada.
odiroot 4y ago
> This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. UK also has near-instant bank transfers. It usually just takes me about 30s to receive one. But you do have to specify the sort-code and account number by hand.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
shafyy 4y ago
We have also instant transfers with many (most?) EU banks, even between countries (SEPA). Granted, it's not yet used to pay taxis or fruit sellers, at least not in Germany.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

westurner 4y ago

FedNow is for US, interbank transactions only. Do your country's favorite banks implement ILP Interledger Protocol; to solve for more than just banks' domestic transactions between themselves? https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/blob/master/0001-interledger-architecture/0001-interledger-architecture.md#interledger-protocol-suite https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/blob/master/0001-interle...

scottiebarnes 4y ago

> Now this is not third party services. It’s bank account to bank account. As a result things like PayPal or Cash app make no sense in this part of the world and have no uptake here. Aren't WeChat Pay and AliPay basically embedded versions of paypal/cash app?

navanchauhan 4y ago
I feel like they are talking about the UPI (unified payment interface) that exists in India. It works way better than Zelle because you don’t need to use your bank’s app (you can if you want to, but most people use PayTM/Google Pay/PhonePe), and you can add multiple bank accounts in your preferred UPI client. You just get a UPI ID that looks like whatever@yourapporbank. Then for online payments you can just enter that ID and approve/deny the transaction request in your UPI client. You could also just generate a QR code for that transaction and scan it with the UPI client I see that a lot of people are unaware about UPI on HN, I might summarise my experience in a separate post and comparing it to Zelle
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  > I see that a lot of people are unaware about UPI on HN, I might summarise my experience in a separate post and comparing it to Zelle Please do! I would buy you a coffee or similar for doing so. Likewise if someone wants to create and maintain a Wikipedia page listing instant payment systems and their details (because FiServ keeps taking down their marketing enumerating this information while also excluding it back from Wayback Machine[1]), I'd be willing to throw some fiat at that. [1] https://www.fisglobal.com/en/flavors-of-fast https://www.fisglobal.com/en/flavors-of-fast (404s, don't bother clicking, Modern Treasury has some content marketing that refers to it)
  - ra7 4y ago
    Previous UPI discussion on HN from 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24094323 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24094323. It links to posts explaining UPI in detail.
j16sdiz 4y ago
WeChat and AliPay exist because China had the same problem. In India, Singapore, Hong Kong, this is a solved problem.

RC_ITR 4y ago

I hear this a lot, but Visa/MC do the exact same thing (though it has died down now that Westerners see universal NFC pay as rightly superior to QR codes) And before you tell me they charge for it, I agree they do, but I also get fraud protection that's 1000x better than anything in SEA or on Venmo/Cash app.

cuteboy19 4y ago
> universal NFC pay as rightly superior to QR codes Why though? You can print out QRs and send them around digitally. No extra tech is needed to handle QRs. Why is NFC better?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Does anyone seriously think QR codes will still be around in 10 years? They always struck me as clunky. They often don't work, require holding your phone in awkward positions for uncomfortably long periods of time and in many circumstances (e.g. a cashier wishing to expose a dynamically generated QR code to a customer) aren't practical. It's only because we haven't come up with cheap/reliable alternatives that all manufacturers agree to support that they're still in use.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Oh I understand now. It's the fault of the implementation of the QR reader that you use. For example all UPI apps have near instant qr recognition at any angle. In fact on my phone, it takes longer for the camera to start than for the QR recognition to finish. I also think there are a lot of things that QRs can do but NFC cannot. But the opposite is not true
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Currently, yes. But in principle NFC or alternatives (that could be cheaply/ instantly generated anywhere, including by non-digital physical objects like pieces of paper) should be better and I'm willing to bet will be in the foreseeable future.

paxys 4y ago

This will never happen in North America because the existing payments establishment is collectively worth trillions of dollars (think Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Square, Stripe, all credit card issuing banks, all smaller second and third degree players) and will be ready to spend a big chunk of it to lobby and keep themselves relevant. Look at the case with tax filings, for example. The US government will never be permitted to enter a business area and displace existing corporations regardless of whether it makes life easier for citizens or not.

srhngpr 4y ago
This has existed in Canada for a very long time via Interac e-Transfers and it doesn't cost anything. You can send money instantly from one bank to any other bank. You do this by sending to someone's email or phone number. The recipient can setup auto-deposit so the money is deposited instantly. For this reason, Venmo, Cash App, etc. makes no sense in Canada either.
- 1-more 4y ago
  Zelle is roughly that in the US. Where Venmo is an intermediary that makes money by having your money before you take the extra step to transfer to your bank (for free in 3 days or instantly for a fee), Zelle is bank account to bank account. Transfers with it show up as debit card transactions in my statement, and I can look people up with phone or email.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Interac is not really the same thing. It's much closer to Venmo, but with more integration with your bank. Mostly because not all banks are actually in the interac network and the transfers are between interac accounts, not bank accounts. You can set it up to autodeposit but it's still a "third" party layer more than actual interbank transfers.
  - aceofspades19 4y ago
    What Canadian banks are not in the Interac network?

legitster 4y ago

> Everyone gets it instantly. I have to believe that there is constant, baseline fraud that everyone in these areas puts up with. In the US, if someone steals my phone or credit card, or intercepts my payments in any way, I pretty much expect to get all my money back. When payments are instant, what's there to stop scammers and fraudsters disappearing with my money?

jazzkingrt 4y ago
I'm not an expert in this area. But a fairer comparison would be a US service like Venmo. In my experience Fraudulent payments with venmo are much harder to recover. I think a lot of fraud prevention tech can reasonably be done in a matter of seconds. FedNow also proposes to be domestic only for the time being, which means the recipient accounts are in US jurisdiction and easier to shut down and prosecute. Finally, there's no reason a wait-period/cooldown can't be implemented in another layer.
- legitster 4y ago
  > easier to shut down and prosecute The problem is when someone spins up a scam account, gets a fraudulent payment, and then cashes it and shuts down the account. If they already have the money in cash, it may be impossible to prosecute. Any fraud prevention is going to have to be privacy intrusive by it's nature.
davchana 4y ago
There is a constant need of OTP for every transaction. That sms says again and again Do not share it with anybody or, something similar to that. Instant transfers are only from bank to bank accounts, and not to any personal wallets. Banks have strict KYC requirements to get the documents again every few years. So whoever account is getting the money, bank gas most of their information. So even after all those multiple warnings, if somebody gets frauded (which happens, because people get greedy, they pay a small amount to get a bigger prize, or a work from home job etc scams), police in some places now have IT Crime cell, which follows up with banks and try to recover the money. No guarantee. But there is no constant stream of fraud anymore thatln what happens here in US with people who fall for scams.

beorno 4y ago

Similar to what China did in 1994? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_China#Electronic_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_China#Electronic_ba...

_8j50 4y ago

The problem in east asia is now you are beholden to smartphones. You can't even give money to a street beggar without a smartphone. The only convenience added by their way is qrcode scanning as opposed to typing up a recipient name. Which I admit is verh nice so long as they mandate accepting cash payments as a condition of a business participating in commerce. Every transaction you make is tracked and being banned from that app means you can't even buy basic survival items and services like food, shelter and even public toilet access lol. You can't even beg people for money because you are banned and your account is tied to your government ID. You effectively accept wepay or whatever monopoly app as your master. Freaky stuff. No thanks, cash is still nicer and convenient (to consumer not merchant).

m463 4y ago

I think fraud would be a problem. I remember reading Matt Ridley's book "The Rational Optimist" and he said that society only progresses when we trade, and we only trade productively when we have trust. So basically I think there must be trust otherwise it will hamper the growth of society.

dannyincolor 4y ago
So, the current situation if you get scammed via Venmo/PayPal or other electronic payment methods is for the FBI / local law enforcement to subpoena the provider for records about the incident. Now, imagine all that data is sitting on Federal servers by default. No subpoena required, and fraud systems would be integrated directly with investigative services at the Federal level. This integration should strike fear in the heart of anyone who currently scams via 3rd-party payment providers. I am bothered that fraud isn't directly addressed in this page, but it's only an FAQ and it'd be silly to think the Fed wouldn't build industry standard (or better) fraud protections into a system they're building from scratch.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  No, the current situation if you get scammed via a credit card or PayPal is that you file a chargeback, and PP/card company reverses the transaction, because withdrawing money takes time. And if the transaction is not reversible, then PP/CC company take the hit on their own bottom line. Is the federal government going to take on that risk? What makes you think they can afford to hire programmers who are skilled enough to build out a sophisticated fraud detection system? The highest GS pay scale is lower than what a new grad makes at Stripe/PayPal.
  - astrange 4y ago
    > The highest GS pay scale is lower than what a new grad makes at Stripe/PayPal. It's better if you compare benefits and cost of living. Or if Stripe fires you because your manager didn't like that you tweeted a joke about Elon Musk once (apparently this happens).

happyopossum 4y ago

> This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. > Instant bank transfers. Really? One of the BEST things? That sets a pretty darned low bar.. I mean, I've never once been even remotely inconvenienced by the US way of handling money and payments.

VHRanger 4y ago
I imagine your payments experience is largely as a retail consumer then
eric4smith 4y ago
Yes. It's one of the best things. The first time you are sitting with your friend and you want to transfer some money to them - and they get it as soon as you tap the button in your bank app -- you will get it. It's normal to people in Asia. But weird to people in the USA and Canada.

odiroot 4y ago

> This is one of the best things about living in Southeast Asia. UK also has near-instant bank transfers. It usually just takes me about 30s to receive one. But you do have to specify the sort-code and account number by hand.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

shafyy 4y ago

We have also instant transfers with many (most?) EU banks, even between countries (SEPA). Granted, it's not yet used to pay taxis or fruit sellers, at least not in Germany.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]