5 ms·

The cameras are far from "the simple stuff", it's one of the more complicated systems in mobile devices with multiple high speed components from different vendo

The cameras are far from "the simple stuff", it's one of the more complicated systems in mobile devices with multiple high speed components from different vendors that have to work together and not very much documentation for the hardware existing.

noasaservice 4y ago
Admittedly, that's doubly concerning. Pine chooses the BoM; we don't. And if they're choosing unsupported/unsupportable chips without doing the barest of legwork to get them functional (or hell, get docs public), then that's a huge problem. Pine should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. The Pinephone Pro doesn't qualify for the definition "phone". If they were serious, they'd put this page up front, with a list of all the stuff that they imply works, but doesn't: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro_Software_State https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro_Software_State
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. inb4 What works: You tell me!
- MartijnBraam 4y ago
  There is not really any good options for the sensors, it's all a few closed developers.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    Martijn, I want to really give you some credit for these responses: It's rare to see someone who will step in and defend bad takes against the party they are also taking issue with.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Agreed, for someone who is watching from the sidelines it lends a lot of credence to Martijn.
- megous 4y ago
  > Admittedly, that's doubly concerning. Pine chooses the BoM; we don't. Actually camera sensor was changed on request from Martijn. (or so I was told, when I was asked to add support for the cameras in the kernel)
  - MartijnBraam 4y ago
    Rear sensor was chosen as a balance of kernel code available and picture quality, I had some influence there, front sensor was originally the ov5640 but that just got replaced due to availability.
- ac29 4y ago
  In the store right above the add to cart button it says: "The PinePhone Pro Explorer Edition is aimed at Linux developers with an extensive knowledge of embedded systems and/or experience with mobile Linux" To me thats pretty a pretty clear implication that many things may work poorly or not at all.
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    That indicates that hackers can do shit to get it to work. And, they call it a Pine *PHONE* Pro. It can't even do the "Phone" thing. And read up about the hardware critical failures that can destroy stuff when you plug in the wrong usb-c connection. Yes, I expect a minimum functionality. You know, like NOT FRYING SHIT. They couldn't even manage to do that.
    - megous 4y ago
      Not sure what you'd have to plug to Pinephone Pro to destroy anything. Maybe a badly broken charger or a dirty plug. There's nothing wrong about Pinehnone Pro's Type-C port supporting circuitry. It's pretty much a reference design this time.
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      What's up with those "can't even do the phone thing"? It's not 2007 anymore, GNU/Linux phones can do phone calls, and PinePhones aren't different.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > Pine should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. The Pinephone Pro doesn't qualify for the definition "phone". I'm actually on board, but do note that that's going to be a chart full of subnotes and caveats - things like "camera produces an slightly red-shifted but passable image on default software shipped from factory, red-shift is fixed with kernel 5.19-patch-foo but that breaks focus, Mobian ships that kernel with a userspace correction filter that fixes it in the latest nightlies[...]". You'll end up with a small table that's 90% little yellow "works with caveats" boxes and then several pages describing the caveats and various working and shades-of-working configurations. Oh, and it'll need to be timestamped and constantly updated (as in "major bugs fixed, and sometimes added, on a weekly basis") In short, summarizing active development is never going to be simple.
  - hertzrat 4y ago
    If it’s no, but has a dozen asterisks, to the end user, that’s still a “no, this component does not work properly.” The footnotes can be 5 pages long but the chart is still straightforward One day I’ll probably end up with a Linux phone, but I mean, not if I’m worried I’ll get surprised when it arrives
Aeolun 4y ago
My $5 bargain bin webcam can take pictures and video at 24hz. My $200 pinephone can, on a good day, do 0.5hz. I dunno, but I expected more.
- megous 4y ago
  Nobody wrote the driver for H.264 HW encoder support, yet. When that happens, Pinephone will be capable of that, too. That's not a $200 proposition, though. :) And I guess there's no huge motivation, given the expected quality of the resulting image. Maybe someone will write it for some other similar AW SoC that uses the same HW block. Such is the power of FOSS.
  - effingwewt 4y ago
    If it's beta software and prototype hardware then they should be in the 'give it to some people willing to help with bugs and documentation' phase, not 'charge people for a phone that can't make phone calls' phase. I used to be all for early adoption, but too many people ran off with my money via Kickstarter and Steam Early Access. edit- add phase x2 =p
    - megous 4y ago
      > If it's beta software and prototype hardware then they should be in the 'give it to some people willing to help with bugs and documentation' phase, not 'charge people for a phone that can't make phone calls' phase. It can make phone calls. It took a separate $31,000 kickstarter and 4 years of a multi-vendor cooperation to create and upstream then non-existent accelerated stateless video decoding API for Linux. Pine64 would have never released anything if they waited on Linux API standardization process (have multiple users of the API in kernel, etc.). And even after 2 years of availability, the only major user of the API is gstreamer, and it's still bubbling through the stack so that you can just open Firefox and play an accelerated video. Pushing through this process even nicher accelerated encoding feature, usable pretty much only for the cameras (which are quite crappy on the OG pinephone, so motivation is already low, there), is just not going to happen for giving someone a 7 year old outdated phone worth $150 only to some enthusiasts and $0 to pretty much everyone else, lol. That's just ridiculous.

noasaservice 4y ago

Admittedly, that's doubly concerning. Pine chooses the BoM; we don't. And if they're choosing unsupported/unsupportable chips without doing the barest of legwork to get them functional (or hell, get docs public), then that's a huge problem. Pine should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. The Pinephone Pro doesn't qualify for the definition "phone". If they were serious, they'd put this page up front, with a list of all the stuff that they imply works, but doesn't: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro_Software_State https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_Pro_Software_State

zozbot234 4y ago
> should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. inb4 What works: You tell me!
MartijnBraam 4y ago
There is not really any good options for the sensors, it's all a few closed developers.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  Martijn, I want to really give you some credit for these responses: It's rare to see someone who will step in and defend bad takes against the party they are also taking issue with.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Agreed, for someone who is watching from the sidelines it lends a lot of credence to Martijn.
megous 4y ago
> Admittedly, that's doubly concerning. Pine chooses the BoM; we don't. Actually camera sensor was changed on request from Martijn. (or so I was told, when I was asked to add support for the cameras in the kernel)
- MartijnBraam 4y ago
  Rear sensor was chosen as a balance of kernel code available and picture quality, I had some influence there, front sensor was originally the ov5640 but that just got replaced due to availability.
ac29 4y ago
In the store right above the add to cart button it says: "The PinePhone Pro Explorer Edition is aimed at Linux developers with an extensive knowledge of embedded systems and/or experience with mobile Linux" To me thats pretty a pretty clear implication that many things may work poorly or not at all.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  That indicates that hackers can do shit to get it to work. And, they call it a Pine *PHONE* Pro. It can't even do the "Phone" thing. And read up about the hardware critical failures that can destroy stuff when you plug in the wrong usb-c connection. Yes, I expect a minimum functionality. You know, like NOT FRYING SHIT. They couldn't even manage to do that.
  - megous 4y ago
    Not sure what you'd have to plug to Pinephone Pro to destroy anything. Maybe a badly broken charger or a dirty plug. There's nothing wrong about Pinehnone Pro's Type-C port supporting circuitry. It's pretty much a reference design this time.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    What's up with those "can't even do the phone thing"? It's not 2007 anymore, GNU/Linux phones can do phone calls, and PinePhones aren't different.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> Pine should be showing on their pages a hardware matrix showing what works and what doesn't. The Pinephone Pro doesn't qualify for the definition "phone". I'm actually on board, but do note that that's going to be a chart full of subnotes and caveats - things like "camera produces an slightly red-shifted but passable image on default software shipped from factory, red-shift is fixed with kernel 5.19-patch-foo but that breaks focus, Mobian ships that kernel with a userspace correction filter that fixes it in the latest nightlies[...]". You'll end up with a small table that's 90% little yellow "works with caveats" boxes and then several pages describing the caveats and various working and shades-of-working configurations. Oh, and it'll need to be timestamped and constantly updated (as in "major bugs fixed, and sometimes added, on a weekly basis") In short, summarizing active development is never going to be simple.
- hertzrat 4y ago
  If it’s no, but has a dozen asterisks, to the end user, that’s still a “no, this component does not work properly.” The footnotes can be 5 pages long but the chart is still straightforward One day I’ll probably end up with a Linux phone, but I mean, not if I’m worried I’ll get surprised when it arrives

Aeolun 4y ago

My $5 bargain bin webcam can take pictures and video at 24hz. My $200 pinephone can, on a good day, do 0.5hz. I dunno, but I expected more.

megous 4y ago
Nobody wrote the driver for H.264 HW encoder support, yet. When that happens, Pinephone will be capable of that, too. That's not a $200 proposition, though. :) And I guess there's no huge motivation, given the expected quality of the resulting image. Maybe someone will write it for some other similar AW SoC that uses the same HW block. Such is the power of FOSS.
- effingwewt 4y ago
  If it's beta software and prototype hardware then they should be in the 'give it to some people willing to help with bugs and documentation' phase, not 'charge people for a phone that can't make phone calls' phase. I used to be all for early adoption, but too many people ran off with my money via Kickstarter and Steam Early Access. edit- add phase x2 =p
  - megous 4y ago
    > If it's beta software and prototype hardware then they should be in the 'give it to some people willing to help with bugs and documentation' phase, not 'charge people for a phone that can't make phone calls' phase. It can make phone calls. It took a separate $31,000 kickstarter and 4 years of a multi-vendor cooperation to create and upstream then non-existent accelerated stateless video decoding API for Linux. Pine64 would have never released anything if they waited on Linux API standardization process (have multiple users of the API in kernel, etc.). And even after 2 years of availability, the only major user of the API is gstreamer, and it's still bubbling through the stack so that you can just open Firefox and play an accelerated video. Pushing through this process even nicher accelerated encoding feature, usable pretty much only for the cameras (which are quite crappy on the OG pinephone, so motivation is already low, there), is just not going to happen for giving someone a 7 year old outdated phone worth $150 only to some enthusiasts and $0 to pretty much everyone else, lol. That's just ridiculous.