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Now imagined what would have happened if they had banned seed oils in their entirety…the amount of poli-insaturated fat those things contain and the fact they o

Now imagined what would have happened if they had banned seed oils in their entirety…the amount of poli-insaturated fat those things contain and the fact they oxidize so easily… there’s a clear connection between the consumption of a diet high in linoleic acid and CVD mortality.

suprfnk 4y ago
> there’s a clear connection between the consumption of a diet high in linoleic acid and CVD mortality. That's interesting. The Wikipedia page for linoleic acid (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid) says this under Health Effects: > Consumption of linoleic acid has been associated with lowering the risk of cardiovascular disease and premature death Linking this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7326588/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7326588/ It's so hard to get any conclusive answers at all in food/health science...
- dalbasal 4y ago
  Not only is it hard to get any conclusive answers at all in food/health science... I find it's very hard to even identify controversies, scientific mysteries and open questions. The posture adopted tends to always give the impression of consensus and knowledge.
  - feet 4y ago
    The posture of what, scientific media reporting? Nearly all papers that I've read generally state confidence, needed work, and confounding factors
- adrian_b 4y ago
  Linoleic acid is an essential nutrient, but the recommended daily intakes are between 11 g and 17 g, depending on sex and age. Most vegetable oils, the main exceptions being olive oil and high-oleic sunflower oil (not classic sunflower oil), have a very high content of linoleic oil, so the daily intake can be obtained from less than 2 spoons of oil. Those who use for cooking vegetable oils high in linoleic acid, or who eat mostly industrially-processed food, typically eat significantly more linoleic acid than the recommended intake. When linoleic acid is in excess over what the body needs, it can be stored only in limited quantities in reserve fat, which must contain other fatty acids in higher proportions. Therefore the excess part of the linoleic acid, over what can be consumed or stored, must be transformed into those other fatty acids, in the liver. This extra work for the liver is undesirable, and when the processing capability of the liver is also exceeded, then some of the fat in the body can have an abnormal composition, too high in linoleic acid. The best is to eat mostly vegetable oils that are high in oleic acid, because those also include enough linoleic acid to cover all needs, and if they are eaten in excess, their fatty acids are just used to synthesize human reserve fat, which has a similar composition.
hosteur 4y ago
Interesting. Do you know of any places banning seed oils entirely? What about olive oil? It is not seed oil but does contain unsaturated fatty acids. Would it be considered safer than seed oils?
- temptemptemp111 4y ago
oifjsidjf 4y ago
You are conflating highly processed seed oils (canola, corn oil,..) with legit cold pressed ones that have been consumed for a long while (hemp oil, olive oil,...)
- grapeskin 4y ago
  Olive oil actually isn’t a seed oil. It comes from the flesh of the olive. I was surprised to learn that myself recently.
  - atwood22 4y ago
    Same with avocado oil, which is a good alternative if you need an oil with a higher smoke point.
  - samatman 4y ago
    While this is true, an oil like high-oleic sunflower oil is (obviously) a seed oil, but one which is mostly oleic acid, like olive oil. Furthermore, coconuts are a seed, and coconut oil is often explicitly cited as an alternative to seed oils. "Seed oil" is a reasonably proxy for the sort of high polyunsaturated oils we should probably avoid eating, but it's a heuristic for identifying products with bad lipid profiles, not a law.
    - marvin 4y ago
      I am once again super confused. During my whole primary education, highly poly-unsaturated fats were considered beneficial with regards to cardiovascular health. Saturated fats and trans fats were considered the culprit. What changed, and when?
      - Jensson 4y ago
        Poly unsaturated fats easily becomes trans-fats when heated. This is very common in factory produced food since trans fats melt at higher temperatures making their shape easier to keep if you turn the poly unsaturated fats to trans fats. But I don't think there are any dangers to poly unsaturated fats other than them easily turning into trans fats, so as long as factories are banned from making them into trans fats it should be fine. Or really the opposite, poly unsaturated fats are the healthiest fats, omega 3 and omega 6 and so on belongs to this group, just be sure to treat it carefully and don't let it turn to trans fats.
temptemptemp111 4y ago
wil421 4y ago
Do you have any sources for that beside Dr. Shanahan and company’s books?
daneel_w 4y ago
Could you cite any of the clear connections? What I've been reading is the opposite, at least in the case of high quality cold-pressed seed oils like linseed oil, hemp oil, rapeseed oil.
- samatman 4y ago
  No citations this morning but I can help narrow it down: the claim (which has backing but isn't universally accepted) is that Omega-6 fatty acids are just unhealthy, there's no amount of them we should be eating. Omega-3 is crucial to health, and the very middle-mainstream of nutritional science talks about Omega-3/6 ratios, the more extreme claim is that the ideal ratio is infinity: while there's some amount of Omega-6 we can digest without health consequences, there's no advantage to doing so relative to consuming none at all.
  - vixen99 4y ago
    As you say, the significance of the 3/6 ratio is still not clear; however we should note that all nutritional authorities (US, EU and Australian & others) confirm both types as essential components of our diet with a 'general recommendation' that the ratio be around 1:10 in favour of omega-6. It's an ongoing field for research.
feet 4y ago
I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas about polyunsaturated fatty acids from, there are PUFAs that are literally essential for the human diet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fatty_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fatty_acid
- imtringued 4y ago
  We also need saturated fats and everything else.
elric 4y ago
I keep hearing this, and I keep thinking it's quackery (mostly based on how much of a fad it's become, and on the less-than-reputable sources making the claims). I'd love to hear some more reputable takes on this.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
  This is probably the most extensive response to the faddish seed-oil claims: https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-to-seed-oil-sophistry https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-... The conclusions is: "In conclusion, vegetable oils appear to be a health-promoting addition to the diet, and seem to offer a range of health benefits and little to no apparent health risks to the general population. However, one should exercise caution when navigating the current food environment, as vegetable oils are included in many foods that are not particularly health-promoting. If one chooses to consume vegetable oils, it would probably be wise to integrate them into a healthy eating pattern in ways that do not promote the overconsumption of calories. Some possible healthy ways to include vegetable oils in the diet could be in the form of salad dressings or as cooking oils for sauteed vegetables."
randoaccount12 4y ago
This is something that is “widely” stated on the internet but not in the medical community. I think these videos are a great breakdown of this: https://youtu.be/qInpEKHdjXk https://youtu.be/qInpEKHdjXk https://youtu.be/9Qk2LEN6opQ https://youtu.be/9Qk2LEN6opQ

suprfnk 4y ago

> there’s a clear connection between the consumption of a diet high in linoleic acid and CVD mortality. That's interesting. The Wikipedia page for linoleic acid (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid) says this under Health Effects: > Consumption of linoleic acid has been associated with lowering the risk of cardiovascular disease and premature death Linking this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7326588/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7326588/ It's so hard to get any conclusive answers at all in food/health science...

dalbasal 4y ago
Not only is it hard to get any conclusive answers at all in food/health science... I find it's very hard to even identify controversies, scientific mysteries and open questions. The posture adopted tends to always give the impression of consensus and knowledge.
- feet 4y ago
  The posture of what, scientific media reporting? Nearly all papers that I've read generally state confidence, needed work, and confounding factors
adrian_b 4y ago
Linoleic acid is an essential nutrient, but the recommended daily intakes are between 11 g and 17 g, depending on sex and age. Most vegetable oils, the main exceptions being olive oil and high-oleic sunflower oil (not classic sunflower oil), have a very high content of linoleic oil, so the daily intake can be obtained from less than 2 spoons of oil. Those who use for cooking vegetable oils high in linoleic acid, or who eat mostly industrially-processed food, typically eat significantly more linoleic acid than the recommended intake. When linoleic acid is in excess over what the body needs, it can be stored only in limited quantities in reserve fat, which must contain other fatty acids in higher proportions. Therefore the excess part of the linoleic acid, over what can be consumed or stored, must be transformed into those other fatty acids, in the liver. This extra work for the liver is undesirable, and when the processing capability of the liver is also exceeded, then some of the fat in the body can have an abnormal composition, too high in linoleic acid. The best is to eat mostly vegetable oils that are high in oleic acid, because those also include enough linoleic acid to cover all needs, and if they are eaten in excess, their fatty acids are just used to synthesize human reserve fat, which has a similar composition.

hosteur 4y ago

Interesting. Do you know of any places banning seed oils entirely? What about olive oil? It is not seed oil but does contain unsaturated fatty acids. Would it be considered safer than seed oils?

temptemptemp111 4y ago

oifjsidjf 4y ago

You are conflating highly processed seed oils (canola, corn oil,..) with legit cold pressed ones that have been consumed for a long while (hemp oil, olive oil,...)

grapeskin 4y ago
Olive oil actually isn’t a seed oil. It comes from the flesh of the olive. I was surprised to learn that myself recently.
- atwood22 4y ago
  Same with avocado oil, which is a good alternative if you need an oil with a higher smoke point.
- samatman 4y ago
  While this is true, an oil like high-oleic sunflower oil is (obviously) a seed oil, but one which is mostly oleic acid, like olive oil. Furthermore, coconuts are a seed, and coconut oil is often explicitly cited as an alternative to seed oils. "Seed oil" is a reasonably proxy for the sort of high polyunsaturated oils we should probably avoid eating, but it's a heuristic for identifying products with bad lipid profiles, not a law.
  - marvin 4y ago
    I am once again super confused. During my whole primary education, highly poly-unsaturated fats were considered beneficial with regards to cardiovascular health. Saturated fats and trans fats were considered the culprit. What changed, and when?
    - Jensson 4y ago
      Poly unsaturated fats easily becomes trans-fats when heated. This is very common in factory produced food since trans fats melt at higher temperatures making their shape easier to keep if you turn the poly unsaturated fats to trans fats. But I don't think there are any dangers to poly unsaturated fats other than them easily turning into trans fats, so as long as factories are banned from making them into trans fats it should be fine. Or really the opposite, poly unsaturated fats are the healthiest fats, omega 3 and omega 6 and so on belongs to this group, just be sure to treat it carefully and don't let it turn to trans fats.

temptemptemp111 4y ago

wil421 4y ago

Do you have any sources for that beside Dr. Shanahan and company’s books?

daneel_w 4y ago

Could you cite any of the clear connections? What I've been reading is the opposite, at least in the case of high quality cold-pressed seed oils like linseed oil, hemp oil, rapeseed oil.

samatman 4y ago
No citations this morning but I can help narrow it down: the claim (which has backing but isn't universally accepted) is that Omega-6 fatty acids are just unhealthy, there's no amount of them we should be eating. Omega-3 is crucial to health, and the very middle-mainstream of nutritional science talks about Omega-3/6 ratios, the more extreme claim is that the ideal ratio is infinity: while there's some amount of Omega-6 we can digest without health consequences, there's no advantage to doing so relative to consuming none at all.
- vixen99 4y ago
  As you say, the significance of the 3/6 ratio is still not clear; however we should note that all nutritional authorities (US, EU and Australian & others) confirm both types as essential components of our diet with a 'general recommendation' that the ratio be around 1:10 in favour of omega-6. It's an ongoing field for research.

feet 4y ago

I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas about polyunsaturated fatty acids from, there are PUFAs that are literally essential for the human diet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fatty_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fatty_acid

imtringued 4y ago
We also need saturated fats and everything else.

elric 4y ago

I keep hearing this, and I keep thinking it's quackery (mostly based on how much of a fad it's become, and on the less-than-reputable sources making the claims). I'd love to hear some more reputable takes on this.

beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
This is probably the most extensive response to the faddish seed-oil claims: https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-to-seed-oil-sophistry https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-... The conclusions is: "In conclusion, vegetable oils appear to be a health-promoting addition to the diet, and seem to offer a range of health benefits and little to no apparent health risks to the general population. However, one should exercise caution when navigating the current food environment, as vegetable oils are included in many foods that are not particularly health-promoting. If one chooses to consume vegetable oils, it would probably be wise to integrate them into a healthy eating pattern in ways that do not promote the overconsumption of calories. Some possible healthy ways to include vegetable oils in the diet could be in the form of salad dressings or as cooking oils for sauteed vegetables."

randoaccount12 4y ago

This is something that is “widely” stated on the internet but not in the medical community. I think these videos are a great breakdown of this: https://youtu.be/qInpEKHdjXk https://youtu.be/qInpEKHdjXk https://youtu.be/9Qk2LEN6opQ https://youtu.be/9Qk2LEN6opQ