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I wonder how long it will be until Apple is running their own fabs, or at least diversifies away from heavily relying on TSMC. Has anyone seen news to this effe

I wonder how long it will be until Apple is running their own fabs, or at least diversifies away from heavily relying on TSMC. Has anyone seen news to this effect?

frakkingcylons 4y ago
I think it's the last thing they would do themselves. Setting up and operating their own TSMC-level fabs would cost Apple: * tens of billions of dollars * at least 5 years of time * most of all: immense effort and focus that could be used elsewhere
- erichocean 4y ago
  Apple is spending $275B to advance Chinese manufacturing.[0] They can easily afford 1/10th of that to build a fab that's ready in five years right here in the US if they wanted to. (Las Vegas is ideal, no natural disasters of any kind.) Hell, they could write a check and buy Intel outright. [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/report-apple-ceo-tim-cook-engineered-a-secret-275-billion-deal-with-china/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/report-apple-ceo-tim...
  - cronix 4y ago
    Las Vegas is currently having their water coming from the Colorado River (and reservoirs fed by it) limited, along with several other states and Mexico. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it will get worse in the near future. https://www.ktnv.com/news/u-s-department-of-interior-declares-further-restrictions-on-colorado-river-water-supply https://www.ktnv.com/news/u-s-department-of-interior-declare...
    - seb1204 4y ago
      I was going to mention the water shortage too. Is water not an important resource for chip making?
    - mike_d 4y ago
      Getting far off topic here, but Las Vegas is one of the safest water supplies. There is the often quoted statistic that Las Vegas gets 90% of its water from Lake Mead/Colorado River. But Las Vegas reclaims and recycles 99% of consumed water and pumps it back into the lake via the Lake Mead Wash. Because they get 99 return-flow credits for every 100 gallons, any draw limits from the watershed will have minimal impact. Las Vegas also has a large groundwater table that supplies 25% of its peak summer demand. As a last resort, the Casinos will never let the city run dry. While they only consume 6-7% of the cities water, they depend on their employees being able to live in the city to keep operating.
pedalpete 4y ago
I think it is more likely that TSMC is diversifying away from building only in Taiwan. They have the expertise. Apple's expertise is engineering, design, and marketing. They don't own their own factories because that is not their expertise, and they probably don't want to bring that in house.
- cronix 4y ago
  Designing their own chips in-house wasn't "their expertise" either, a few years ago. You won't expand into other areas unless you at least make it a priority and try.
  - skohan 4y ago
    Getting into semiconductors is probably substantially more complicated. Only a handful of companies are able to do it well and they have bene at it for decades.
    - Covzire 4y ago
      "at least it's not chip fabrication" is the new "hey at least it's not rocket science".
    - littlecranky67 4y ago
      Such as creating a general purpose CPU that could compete with Intel/AMD performance-wise?
    - spaceman_2020 4y ago
      Apple does have more resources to throw at this problem than anyone. Considering that their entire product line collapses without semiconductors, it wouldn’t be a poor investment.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I think a few years ago there were rumblings about a 2/3nm Apple fab being made in Berlin, but I've heard nothing about it since, so it may be a lie. That being said; the other commenter is right. If Apple had to release the M1 on 10nm or even 7nm, they would end up sacrificing at least >200% performance-per-watt; a death blow to either the battery life or performance. Apple's move to dominate the 5nm supply was another demonstration of their manipulation of supply chains akin to their iPod hard drives. There are indeed interesting parts of Apple Silicon, but the performance is driven wholly by their exclusive 5nm ARM cores.
futhey 4y ago
Why would they? They identified the best semiconductor manufacturer, and gave them so much business they basically do whatever Apple wants, and prioritize their capacity over everyone else.
mrweasel 4y ago
It seems more realistic that they will move to TSMC in the US, or in the future have Intel fab their chips.

I wonder how long it will be until Apple is running their own fabs, or at least diversifies away from heavily relying on TSMC. Has anyone seen news to this effect?

frakkingcylons 4y ago

I think it's the last thing they would do themselves. Setting up and operating their own TSMC-level fabs would cost Apple: * tens of billions of dollars * at least 5 years of time * most of all: immense effort and focus that could be used elsewhere

erichocean 4y ago
Apple is spending $275B to advance Chinese manufacturing.[0] They can easily afford 1/10th of that to build a fab that's ready in five years right here in the US if they wanted to. (Las Vegas is ideal, no natural disasters of any kind.) Hell, they could write a check and buy Intel outright. [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/report-apple-ceo-tim-cook-engineered-a-secret-275-billion-deal-with-china/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/report-apple-ceo-tim...
- cronix 4y ago
  Las Vegas is currently having their water coming from the Colorado River (and reservoirs fed by it) limited, along with several other states and Mexico. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it will get worse in the near future. https://www.ktnv.com/news/u-s-department-of-interior-declares-further-restrictions-on-colorado-river-water-supply https://www.ktnv.com/news/u-s-department-of-interior-declare...
  - seb1204 4y ago
    I was going to mention the water shortage too. Is water not an important resource for chip making?
  - mike_d 4y ago
    Getting far off topic here, but Las Vegas is one of the safest water supplies. There is the often quoted statistic that Las Vegas gets 90% of its water from Lake Mead/Colorado River. But Las Vegas reclaims and recycles 99% of consumed water and pumps it back into the lake via the Lake Mead Wash. Because they get 99 return-flow credits for every 100 gallons, any draw limits from the watershed will have minimal impact. Las Vegas also has a large groundwater table that supplies 25% of its peak summer demand. As a last resort, the Casinos will never let the city run dry. While they only consume 6-7% of the cities water, they depend on their employees being able to live in the city to keep operating.

pedalpete 4y ago

I think it is more likely that TSMC is diversifying away from building only in Taiwan. They have the expertise. Apple's expertise is engineering, design, and marketing. They don't own their own factories because that is not their expertise, and they probably don't want to bring that in house.

cronix 4y ago
Designing their own chips in-house wasn't "their expertise" either, a few years ago. You won't expand into other areas unless you at least make it a priority and try.
- skohan 4y ago
  Getting into semiconductors is probably substantially more complicated. Only a handful of companies are able to do it well and they have bene at it for decades.
  - Covzire 4y ago
    "at least it's not chip fabrication" is the new "hey at least it's not rocket science".
  - littlecranky67 4y ago
    Such as creating a general purpose CPU that could compete with Intel/AMD performance-wise?
  - spaceman_2020 4y ago
    Apple does have more resources to throw at this problem than anyone. Considering that their entire product line collapses without semiconductors, it wouldn’t be a poor investment.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I think a few years ago there were rumblings about a 2/3nm Apple fab being made in Berlin, but I've heard nothing about it since, so it may be a lie. That being said; the other commenter is right. If Apple had to release the M1 on 10nm or even 7nm, they would end up sacrificing at least >200% performance-per-watt; a death blow to either the battery life or performance. Apple's move to dominate the 5nm supply was another demonstration of their manipulation of supply chains akin to their iPod hard drives. There are indeed interesting parts of Apple Silicon, but the performance is driven wholly by their exclusive 5nm ARM cores.

futhey 4y ago

Why would they? They identified the best semiconductor manufacturer, and gave them so much business they basically do whatever Apple wants, and prioritize their capacity over everyone else.

mrweasel 4y ago

It seems more realistic that they will move to TSMC in the US, or in the future have Intel fab their chips.