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My team at google, we originally told everyone to come and go as they pleased back in February. That seemed the most flexible and the most employee friendly, b

My team at google, we originally told everyone to come and go as they pleased back in February. That seemed the most flexible and the most employee friendly, but when we surveyed the team they didn’t like having no guidance on when they should be in the office. So we labeled three days “preferred in-office” and made it clear you could still work from home on those days if you wanted. People much prefer this system.

opminion 4y ago
National holidays have the same coordination role: even if one had the same total days of vacation per year (as paid by employer), having some of them fixed by societal convention is an advantage for those who want to go to their village and meet their friends and relatives.
- smugma 4y ago
  This is why Christmas shutdowns (and Thanksgiving) are the best holidays. Whenever we have a new person, we tell them how seriously we take the shutdown and to not send the team any emails until after. In 2020, we had a manager join from a different FANG and she sent two emails the first Monday of break. Apparently another manager immediately texted her and told her to stop!
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    Why are people reading emails during these breaks? By not reacting everyone would quickly understand that off means off.
    - Cerium 4y ago
      Right? On a break like that I don't even have my laptop with me.
      - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
        Maybe it's because I am French but all these stories about people working during breaks is insane. In all honesty, I have several work pals who do read their emails when on break (their choice) - I prefer coming back to 500 to 800 emails, quickly go though the important ones and realize that 8/9th of the problems solved themselves without my intervention.
bluehatbrit 4y ago
For a company with an office and colocated employees, this seems like a good balance to me. I'm fully remote now but in my old team as covid began to taper off we had Wednesday as our "preferred in-office" day. People would make the effort to come in if they didn't have a reason not to and we'd take an extended lunch to socialise and catch up. Our team was split between 2 offices in different cities so all our meetings were still done on video calls but it mean the two sides of the team could get together. Also if we all met up in one office every few months then we had a day of the week we'd default to. Suggested structure, but freedom to choose!
koheripbal 4y ago
This is great for disciplined employees. It's terrible for junior employees who haven't yet developed their sense of discipline.
- justbaker 4y ago
  I’d even say terrible for those who have no experience working remote; you’re entirely right in that it requires discipline. During the pandemic at my old company we had the IT/software department I worked in, and the auditing department. IT had no issues with complete remote having the prior experience and if anything productivity doubled. The auditing department struggled and was forced back in office as soon as possible.
- hn_20591249 4y ago
  Sounds like you should have more faith in your junior employees :)
- prirun 4y ago
  Working remotely is a skill to develop, like any other.
- SteveDR 4y ago
  I’m a junior employee working on a “preferred in-office” schedule. The COVID semesters of college tested my discipline much more than this, I really like my hybrid schedule.
CommieBobDole 4y ago
In my experience, if the company says "we would prefer that you do this, but it's your choice" it means "We don't feel like we can make you do this for whatever reason, but if you don't, you're Not a Team Player, and your career advancement ends here" Maybe Google is different, but I doubt it. Probably Google used to be different, and no longer is, and a bunch of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  "Preferred but optional, your choice" sounds like a perfect compromise to me. At my job, it's "three days in minimum or you're fired, and btw the other two are preferred as well".
- pc86 4y ago
  This is the conundrum, right? A lot of people dislike having no direction, especially with a lot of local people. My employer for example has one Thursday-Friday every month where the policy is basically "go into your local office, if you are within a commutable distance, and you want to go in." 'Commutable distance' is intentionally undefined, as the goal is for each person to decide whether they are a commutable distance or not. I had a job where I had a 50 minute commute but it was all back roads and I was going 50-60mph the entire time. It was fine, even enjoyable in nice weather. I've also had jobs where I sit on an interstate parking lot for 25 minutes each day and it was hell. "Preferred in-office" makes sense when it's not as you described. It all just boils down to how much you can trust your boss and their boss, and whether you believe the company will make a good faith effort to communicate policy changes to you effectively. There's always the risk of someone you've never met getting a promotion and all of a sudden the definition of "preferred" changes but isn't communicated.
- davidguetta 4y ago
  I mean you can't legitimately impose your suspicions, as founded as they could be about compagnies you know, on a compagny you don't. What answer do you want really ? It's good to be suspicious but you need to leave room for actual good policies.
jraph 4y ago
I don't understand this. Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? Especially if it's not enforced in any way. What are the psychological or social mechanisms behind this? I'm rather of the kind who don't like to be told what I should do so I can't relate much. (I'd appreciate it if people would tell me they would be pleased to see me and that could actually make me come, but that's different than some emotionless guideline)
- blairbeckwith 4y ago
  Lots of people – even very smart people – like guidance around what expectations are. This can be doubly true in some environments, like certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see. As one example, consider the "unlimited vacation" policy and pushback around those. Sure, the official policy is unlimited, but try taking more vacation than your manager wishes you would and see how that affects your next performance review.
  - jraph 4y ago
    > certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see Okay. I've not experienced this situation indeed. Official policy / stated expectations has always matched actual expectations perfectly well wherever I worked, to the best of my knowledge. A difference there must be a mess to handle indeed.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? You might think that the people who get to Google are independent thinkers, but it's quite the opposite. Look at it this way: they spend 12 years in primary and secondary education being told what to do, and they study standardized tests to advance to the next stage of their education at a university. They spend 4+ years there, all the while taking tests and exams and going through courses where again they are told exactly what to do every step of the way, with granular feedback as to how they are meeting the standards. Then upon graduating with a degree they put their knowledge to use by studying for what is essentially yet another entrance exam into Google. The person who follows this kind of trajectory hasn't had an opportunity for truly independent thought probably their entire life. They are conditioned to follow guidelines, and the first questions they'll ask for any task are: "Where is the rubric? What are the rules? How will I be evaluated?" because they know how to succeed when there are guidelines and rules and procedures to follow. Take away those, and they will flail. I've seen it many times.

opminion 4y ago

National holidays have the same coordination role: even if one had the same total days of vacation per year (as paid by employer), having some of them fixed by societal convention is an advantage for those who want to go to their village and meet their friends and relatives.

smugma 4y ago
This is why Christmas shutdowns (and Thanksgiving) are the best holidays. Whenever we have a new person, we tell them how seriously we take the shutdown and to not send the team any emails until after. In 2020, we had a manager join from a different FANG and she sent two emails the first Monday of break. Apparently another manager immediately texted her and told her to stop!
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  Why are people reading emails during these breaks? By not reacting everyone would quickly understand that off means off.
  - Cerium 4y ago
    Right? On a break like that I don't even have my laptop with me.
    - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
      Maybe it's because I am French but all these stories about people working during breaks is insane. In all honesty, I have several work pals who do read their emails when on break (their choice) - I prefer coming back to 500 to 800 emails, quickly go though the important ones and realize that 8/9th of the problems solved themselves without my intervention.

bluehatbrit 4y ago

For a company with an office and colocated employees, this seems like a good balance to me. I'm fully remote now but in my old team as covid began to taper off we had Wednesday as our "preferred in-office" day. People would make the effort to come in if they didn't have a reason not to and we'd take an extended lunch to socialise and catch up. Our team was split between 2 offices in different cities so all our meetings were still done on video calls but it mean the two sides of the team could get together. Also if we all met up in one office every few months then we had a day of the week we'd default to. Suggested structure, but freedom to choose!

koheripbal 4y ago

This is great for disciplined employees. It's terrible for junior employees who haven't yet developed their sense of discipline.

justbaker 4y ago
I’d even say terrible for those who have no experience working remote; you’re entirely right in that it requires discipline. During the pandemic at my old company we had the IT/software department I worked in, and the auditing department. IT had no issues with complete remote having the prior experience and if anything productivity doubled. The auditing department struggled and was forced back in office as soon as possible.
hn_20591249 4y ago
Sounds like you should have more faith in your junior employees :)
prirun 4y ago
Working remotely is a skill to develop, like any other.
SteveDR 4y ago
I’m a junior employee working on a “preferred in-office” schedule. The COVID semesters of college tested my discipline much more than this, I really like my hybrid schedule.

CommieBobDole 4y ago

In my experience, if the company says "we would prefer that you do this, but it's your choice" it means "We don't feel like we can make you do this for whatever reason, but if you don't, you're Not a Team Player, and your career advancement ends here" Maybe Google is different, but I doubt it. Probably Google used to be different, and no longer is, and a bunch of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago
"Preferred but optional, your choice" sounds like a perfect compromise to me. At my job, it's "three days in minimum or you're fired, and btw the other two are preferred as well".
pc86 4y ago
This is the conundrum, right? A lot of people dislike having no direction, especially with a lot of local people. My employer for example has one Thursday-Friday every month where the policy is basically "go into your local office, if you are within a commutable distance, and you want to go in." 'Commutable distance' is intentionally undefined, as the goal is for each person to decide whether they are a commutable distance or not. I had a job where I had a 50 minute commute but it was all back roads and I was going 50-60mph the entire time. It was fine, even enjoyable in nice weather. I've also had jobs where I sit on an interstate parking lot for 25 minutes each day and it was hell. "Preferred in-office" makes sense when it's not as you described. It all just boils down to how much you can trust your boss and their boss, and whether you believe the company will make a good faith effort to communicate policy changes to you effectively. There's always the risk of someone you've never met getting a promotion and all of a sudden the definition of "preferred" changes but isn't communicated.
davidguetta 4y ago
I mean you can't legitimately impose your suspicions, as founded as they could be about compagnies you know, on a compagny you don't. What answer do you want really ? It's good to be suspicious but you need to leave room for actual good policies.

jraph 4y ago

I don't understand this. Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? Especially if it's not enforced in any way. What are the psychological or social mechanisms behind this? I'm rather of the kind who don't like to be told what I should do so I can't relate much. (I'd appreciate it if people would tell me they would be pleased to see me and that could actually make me come, but that's different than some emotionless guideline)

blairbeckwith 4y ago
Lots of people – even very smart people – like guidance around what expectations are. This can be doubly true in some environments, like certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see. As one example, consider the "unlimited vacation" policy and pushback around those. Sure, the official policy is unlimited, but try taking more vacation than your manager wishes you would and see how that affects your next performance review.
- jraph 4y ago
  > certain corporate environments, where the official policy is not in line with what leadership actually wants to see Okay. I've not experienced this situation indeed. Official policy / stated expectations has always matched actual expectations perfectly well wherever I worked, to the best of my knowledge. A difference there must be a mess to handle indeed.
ModernMech 4y ago
> Why do people need such guidance, especially people able to get a job at Google? You might think that the people who get to Google are independent thinkers, but it's quite the opposite. Look at it this way: they spend 12 years in primary and secondary education being told what to do, and they study standardized tests to advance to the next stage of their education at a university. They spend 4+ years there, all the while taking tests and exams and going through courses where again they are told exactly what to do every step of the way, with granular feedback as to how they are meeting the standards. Then upon graduating with a degree they put their knowledge to use by studying for what is essentially yet another entrance exam into Google. The person who follows this kind of trajectory hasn't had an opportunity for truly independent thought probably their entire life. They are conditioned to follow guidelines, and the first questions they'll ask for any task are: "Where is the rubric? What are the rules? How will I be evaluated?" because they know how to succeed when there are guidelines and rules and procedures to follow. Take away those, and they will flail. I've seen it many times.