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KDE is a better desktop environment than MacOS, by far. I have had so many usability issues with my Mac that does not exist in KDE/Linux. E.g. Apple confining t

KDE is a better desktop environment than MacOS, by far. I have had so many usability issues with my Mac that does not exist in KDE/Linux. E.g. Apple confining the GUI and not including basic functionality. Specifically: - I really miss a decent address bar in finder that can be edited directly - some windows on mac are always on top, preventing access to other windows. E.g. Password dialogs for encrypted hard drives. - "Cut" does not work for files in finder, severely complicating moving files - The Maximize button does not maximize, but instead enters full screen, meaning that I never use it - There is a delay of ~100ms when pushing caps lock on the keyboard that can not be turned off without installing karabiner elements - Pressing enter in Finder renames a file instead of opening it, an action that is rarely needed and extremely unintuitive – this erroneous behaviour can also be corrected with karabiner elements - Sometimes audio balance will randomly shift to the left or right with bluetooth headphones, had to install yet another app to auto-fix it every time it happens because Apple is too daft to fix the bug. - There is no delete key on the Mac keyboard, meaning that deleting a file is suddenly a two- key shortcut combo, whereas it is much easier on Windows/Linux (hit delete). Sigh.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ysleepy 4y ago
None of those are bugs, just differences. sounds like you tried for a day and were annoyed it's not exactly as you are used to. Most of your issues simply work differently on macos, and many have been since before kde existed. Sure some could be better, but changing these would upset the whole user base. (And mac users could claim those things broken in kde in the same way) I have used windows, gnome2, gnome3, xfce, mac and so on and dislike kde, and gnome3, and all the others. Even mac is really dumb sometimes, but macos is the most polished by far.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Most entries in posters list are complaints with how things work. Two of these seem like bugs. > Sometimes audio balance will randomly shift to the left or right with bluetooth headphones > There is a delay of ~100ms when pushing caps lock Another seems objective not subjective > Pressing enter in Finder renames a file instead of opening it Who thinks the enter to rename is reasonable?
  - LeoNatan25 4y ago
    > Who thinks the enter to rename is reasonable? Decades of MacOS users?
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    Audio balance seems like a bug. Caps Lock delay seems like accidental activation prevention. Who thinks F2 to rename is reasonable?
    - gattilorenz 4y ago
      > Audio balance seems like a bug A long standing one actually. I remember having it in Mojave/El Capitan already on my 2102 MBP. The others are annoyances from not being familiar with the UI, some more motivated than others. But let’s recall the sad story of the thumbnails in GNOME’s file picker, for a second…
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      Having it delayed by a portion of a second can never in any way shape or form prevent accidental activation as you don't have time to notice and correct the matter. It IS just enough to prevent several characters from being entered in the correct case. Users expect actions to match the sequence of inputs. If the user can type CAPS and "TITLE" and get "tITLE" its a bug. Basically 50 years of computer interfaces of all kids across all OS across planet earth use enter or return for activation. This includes Mac in all other contexts. F2 to rename dates back to windows 3.1 with environments like KDE using the same key that is familiar to windows users. Like many things it is an arbitrary choice without any inherently correct answer. The nice thing about it is in dolphin is that one can easily discover this by right clicking a file or folder and noting the shortcut listed beside the action so you can both complete the task visually immediately and learn the hotkey easily.
      - pseudalopex 4y ago
        Older MacBooks activate Caps Lock instantly. Recent MacBooks activate Caps Lock after the key is held long enough. Bugs are when systems don't work as intended. Intent you don't like isn't a bug. Enter or return does different things in different contexts. Its most frequent functions are go to a new line or end text entry. Saying it means activate and implying activate means open is trying to find consistency where it isn't. And what it does in Finder is what it does in other text fields. Return for rename is older than Windows 3.1. The error rate for pressing F2 is high for something so common as rename.
- still_grokking 4y ago
  And what about all the bugs Apple seems to add on a daily basis and not fixing them than for month, years, or actually ever? I can read in the news more or less every day that fundamental things like input devices, monitors, audio, or basic GUI features are messed up or bluntly broken in macOS. People already "joking" that one needs to way at least two or three point releases before trying out major updates. That's even worse than the situation on Windows by now (and MS is also breaking things with every update). As a Linux user that uses a "perpetual beta" distri (Debian Testing) I'm horrified about such news. Comparable breakage does happen on my OS maybe 2 times in a decade on average, and when some catastrophe like that happens (monitor stops working, no audio, USB not working, or such) it's usually fixed within hours!
  - JacobSeated 4y ago
    The alternative for "maximize" on Mac is to simply double click the Window, although some Windows do not have much of a "title" or "bar" to click on, because of modern simplification of GUIs, and this can cause accidents to happen. Still, I will argue it is incorrect to have the maximize button do something that I hardly ever need to do, that is, enter full screen for the given window. Both Gnome and KDE are better desktop environments, heck even Windows 11 has done a better job (although they ruined the taskbar now). The mere fact that you can not change things to your liking on Mac proves my point. You have to buy- and install third party applications from developers that you do not know or trust, and that is just to fix some of the most basic issues. Microsoft recently also decided to go down this route, and have now sabotaged their own Taskbar, preventing users from moving it. It has nothing to do with "not being used to the Mac-way" – these things are just worse on Mac. There is nothing good about not having direct access to the location address in your File Manager, or not being able to change this stupid default behaviour of various keys and UI elements. The ability to use "cut" on files, and actually change location by a text-based address bar are both to be considered core features. It is entirely brainless and inconvenient that we have to hold in "option" just to get a "move files" option to show up in the right click context menu.
    - still_grokking 4y ago
timeon 4y ago
> - "Cut" does not work for files in finder, severely complicating moving files Luckily macos is extensible so you can create your own service for that.
- solardev 4y ago
  Mac has a different workflow for this. You copy and then "paste and move" at the destination, instead of the standard cut. But same result.
  - dolmen 4y ago
    I was used to Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V to move files on Windows. What is the shortcut for "paste and move"?
    - gield 4y ago
      ⌘+C for copy ⌘+V for paste ⌘+⇧+V for paste and move
      - philkrylov 4y ago
        thanks!
  - JacobSeated 4y ago
    You have to press and hold the option key while the context menu is open. It is just inconvenient compared to other systems.
    - solardev 4y ago
      Agreed. I hate it too.
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  I find the Mouse is typically more convenient for cut on files, unless I happen to have my other hand on the keyboard. The shortcut keys on mac are often a two, three or even four combination whereas on GNU/Linux or Windows it will be a one or two-key operation. The way Mac handles copying and pasting text is also horrendous, because it also copies the styling, something I actually never need to do. The way to paste text without styling is a horrendous long, and inconvenient keyboard combo. Other system does that too, but it is just less often an issue. Typically what I do instead is I have a plain text window open, paste my text in that, then copy it again, and finally paste it in the intended destination. It is piss annoying
solardev 4y ago
Coming from the Windows and Linux worlds, I had similar frustrations with the primitive Mac UI. Mostly a better keyboard shortcuts/window timer fixed them for me (Magnet). There are still some issues but they are relatively minor. What made me stick with the platform though was never having to worry about drivers, and updates being polite and patient, and not being bombarded with a billion ads everywhere like in Windows or Ubuntu. Also not having to drop into the command line to change monitor settings is nice. And the M1 is just soooo nice, fast and quiet and cool, no x86 laptop is even remotely close anymore. They put the ThinkPads, my previous favorite, to shame. So yeah, to your point, the dumbed down UI is a pain, but the rest of the experience is so much nicer now. I'd take needing a few extra apps over having to go back to desktop Linux...
- trenchgun 4y ago
  Linux works with M1
  - sharikous 4y ago
    Absolutely not ready for production environments. A lot of driver support is lacking. Audio is disabled since it could blow up the speakers. Wifi doesn't always work (for me at least). And that's without talking about GPU support or even Thunderbolt support.
- zitsarethecure 4y ago
  > Also not having to drop into the command line to change monitor settings is nice. I can't remember the last time I had to do this on Linux. Sometime in the the 90's, I think.
  - solardev 4y ago
    I had to do it multiple times with hidpi monitors just a few years back. Not sure about ultrawide, hdr, high refresh rate, gsync, etc.
noodlebear 4y ago
Is this relevant to the submission, or simply a spot you’ve interpreted as a convenient one to air all of your grievances about Macs? I guess not only air them, but state them in a way where only your approach is correct (“erroneous” is inappropriate to apply to a UI decision that differs from your preference, for example)
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  If you pay attention, you will note the authors of this decided to Ditch KDE and apparently design their own UI, which would be more like Mac. My point is, power users do not really want Mac desktop environment – it is just a "necessary" evil that we are stuck with.
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    Their point is your preferences are your preferences. Not obejctive tests for power user status.
baq 4y ago
> always on top, preventing access to other windows. E.g. Password dialogs for encrypted hard drives. this is something that should be done everywhere, if it isn't, it's a potential security issue.
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  Supposedly the security issue is about copying and pasting passwords. Trust me, the alternative is much, much worse. You do not want users using the same password everywhere. I use a password manager, passwords are encrypted and only briefly available doing the copy / paste operation. It also has an auto-fill option which further limits the attack surface. KDE is much more respectful towards users, because you can actually remove/add the "always on top" flag as needed, and that IS the way it should be.
elcritch 4y ago
Note that you can do "Cut" in Finder by doing "Copy (Cmd-C)" but then using "Alt-Cmd-V". It'll move the file instead of copying. Also, you can also fix the "caps lock" issue by remapping it to "control". Completely fixes the "caps lock" button. It works on Linux too! ;)
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  This way of doing copy or move makes a lot of sense since it allows you to change your mind without having to go back to the original file and cut/copy again. Instead, it defers that decision until you get to your destination, where moving the file just takes an extra modifier on top of the usual paste shortcut.
- trebbble 4y ago
  It only just dawned on me reading this—Windows doesn't actually "cut" files, does it? The behavior's different from "cutting" text. The files remain until you paste, right? Mac's choice makes a ton more sense, in that case, since actually cutting files is probably a bad idea (if you forget to paste, they're gone)
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  I am aware of that, but the fact is that this is less convenient than a standard "cut", as on other systems, so I honestly never use that. What I do instead is I have two windows open, and then I drag and drop between them. Also less convenient, but better than having to keep an extra hand on the keyboard constantly. And of course, a "always on top" flag would have been really nice for dragging and dropping between windows. That option is really nice in KDE, but missing on both Mac and Windows.
mschuster91 4y ago
> I really miss a decent address bar in finder that can be edited directly Press Command-Shift-G and it will appear as a small window. (I haven't figured out how to do this in a "Open/Save File" dialog, so if anyone can chime in, greatly aprreciated) > "Cut" does not work for files in finder, severely complicating moving files It's annoying that there is no shortcut equivalent, but if you need to actually move a file either drag and drop it, or press Option while right-clicking in the target Finder window - the menu entry will change from "copy here" to "move here". > The Maximize button does not maximize, but instead enters full screen, meaning that I never use it Yuck, yeah. Very irritating. Use SizeUp, well worth the 13 US$.
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  Command-Shift-G is new to me, but it is too inconvenient, being forced to keep and extra hand on the keyboard for such simple operations. It breaks my normal work-flow when I am on my mac, which is most the time nowadays. There also is a shortcut for moving files, but I do not care about that.
speed_spread 4y ago
100% with you. KDE is the only desktop environment, all platforms confounded, that hasn't sacrificed power user functionality on the altar of streamlined / dumbed-down "design". It's like a race to the bottom to please an elusive lowest common denominator class of users that doesn't exist. I find these other "modern" UIs incredibly condescending. Instead, discoverability should be #1, creating soft, natural learning curve that welcomes new users without capping or hiding advanced functionality.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ysleepy 4y ago

None of those are bugs, just differences. sounds like you tried for a day and were annoyed it's not exactly as you are used to. Most of your issues simply work differently on macos, and many have been since before kde existed. Sure some could be better, but changing these would upset the whole user base. (And mac users could claim those things broken in kde in the same way) I have used windows, gnome2, gnome3, xfce, mac and so on and dislike kde, and gnome3, and all the others. Even mac is really dumb sometimes, but macos is the most polished by far.

michaelmrose 4y ago
Most entries in posters list are complaints with how things work. Two of these seem like bugs. > Sometimes audio balance will randomly shift to the left or right with bluetooth headphones > There is a delay of ~100ms when pushing caps lock Another seems objective not subjective > Pressing enter in Finder renames a file instead of opening it Who thinks the enter to rename is reasonable?
- LeoNatan25 4y ago
  > Who thinks the enter to rename is reasonable? Decades of MacOS users?
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Audio balance seems like a bug. Caps Lock delay seems like accidental activation prevention. Who thinks F2 to rename is reasonable?
  - gattilorenz 4y ago
    > Audio balance seems like a bug A long standing one actually. I remember having it in Mojave/El Capitan already on my 2102 MBP. The others are annoyances from not being familiar with the UI, some more motivated than others. But let’s recall the sad story of the thumbnails in GNOME’s file picker, for a second…
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Having it delayed by a portion of a second can never in any way shape or form prevent accidental activation as you don't have time to notice and correct the matter. It IS just enough to prevent several characters from being entered in the correct case. Users expect actions to match the sequence of inputs. If the user can type CAPS and "TITLE" and get "tITLE" its a bug. Basically 50 years of computer interfaces of all kids across all OS across planet earth use enter or return for activation. This includes Mac in all other contexts. F2 to rename dates back to windows 3.1 with environments like KDE using the same key that is familiar to windows users. Like many things it is an arbitrary choice without any inherently correct answer. The nice thing about it is in dolphin is that one can easily discover this by right clicking a file or folder and noting the shortcut listed beside the action so you can both complete the task visually immediately and learn the hotkey easily.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      Older MacBooks activate Caps Lock instantly. Recent MacBooks activate Caps Lock after the key is held long enough. Bugs are when systems don't work as intended. Intent you don't like isn't a bug. Enter or return does different things in different contexts. Its most frequent functions are go to a new line or end text entry. Saying it means activate and implying activate means open is trying to find consistency where it isn't. And what it does in Finder is what it does in other text fields. Return for rename is older than Windows 3.1. The error rate for pressing F2 is high for something so common as rename.
still_grokking 4y ago
And what about all the bugs Apple seems to add on a daily basis and not fixing them than for month, years, or actually ever? I can read in the news more or less every day that fundamental things like input devices, monitors, audio, or basic GUI features are messed up or bluntly broken in macOS. People already "joking" that one needs to way at least two or three point releases before trying out major updates. That's even worse than the situation on Windows by now (and MS is also breaking things with every update). As a Linux user that uses a "perpetual beta" distri (Debian Testing) I'm horrified about such news. Comparable breakage does happen on my OS maybe 2 times in a decade on average, and when some catastrophe like that happens (monitor stops working, no audio, USB not working, or such) it's usually fixed within hours!
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  The alternative for "maximize" on Mac is to simply double click the Window, although some Windows do not have much of a "title" or "bar" to click on, because of modern simplification of GUIs, and this can cause accidents to happen. Still, I will argue it is incorrect to have the maximize button do something that I hardly ever need to do, that is, enter full screen for the given window. Both Gnome and KDE are better desktop environments, heck even Windows 11 has done a better job (although they ruined the taskbar now). The mere fact that you can not change things to your liking on Mac proves my point. You have to buy- and install third party applications from developers that you do not know or trust, and that is just to fix some of the most basic issues. Microsoft recently also decided to go down this route, and have now sabotaged their own Taskbar, preventing users from moving it. It has nothing to do with "not being used to the Mac-way" – these things are just worse on Mac. There is nothing good about not having direct access to the location address in your File Manager, or not being able to change this stupid default behaviour of various keys and UI elements. The ability to use "cut" on files, and actually change location by a text-based address bar are both to be considered core features. It is entirely brainless and inconvenient that we have to hold in "option" just to get a "move files" option to show up in the right click context menu.
  - still_grokking 4y ago

timeon 4y ago

> - "Cut" does not work for files in finder, severely complicating moving files Luckily macos is extensible so you can create your own service for that.

solardev 4y ago
Mac has a different workflow for this. You copy and then "paste and move" at the destination, instead of the standard cut. But same result.
- dolmen 4y ago
  I was used to Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V to move files on Windows. What is the shortcut for "paste and move"?
  - gield 4y ago
    ⌘+C for copy ⌘+V for paste ⌘+⇧+V for paste and move
    - philkrylov 4y ago
      thanks!
- JacobSeated 4y ago
  You have to press and hold the option key while the context menu is open. It is just inconvenient compared to other systems.
  - solardev 4y ago
    Agreed. I hate it too.
JacobSeated 4y ago
I find the Mouse is typically more convenient for cut on files, unless I happen to have my other hand on the keyboard. The shortcut keys on mac are often a two, three or even four combination whereas on GNU/Linux or Windows it will be a one or two-key operation. The way Mac handles copying and pasting text is also horrendous, because it also copies the styling, something I actually never need to do. The way to paste text without styling is a horrendous long, and inconvenient keyboard combo. Other system does that too, but it is just less often an issue. Typically what I do instead is I have a plain text window open, paste my text in that, then copy it again, and finally paste it in the intended destination. It is piss annoying

solardev 4y ago

Coming from the Windows and Linux worlds, I had similar frustrations with the primitive Mac UI. Mostly a better keyboard shortcuts/window timer fixed them for me (Magnet). There are still some issues but they are relatively minor. What made me stick with the platform though was never having to worry about drivers, and updates being polite and patient, and not being bombarded with a billion ads everywhere like in Windows or Ubuntu. Also not having to drop into the command line to change monitor settings is nice. And the M1 is just soooo nice, fast and quiet and cool, no x86 laptop is even remotely close anymore. They put the ThinkPads, my previous favorite, to shame. So yeah, to your point, the dumbed down UI is a pain, but the rest of the experience is so much nicer now. I'd take needing a few extra apps over having to go back to desktop Linux...

trenchgun 4y ago
Linux works with M1
- sharikous 4y ago
  Absolutely not ready for production environments. A lot of driver support is lacking. Audio is disabled since it could blow up the speakers. Wifi doesn't always work (for me at least). And that's without talking about GPU support or even Thunderbolt support.
zitsarethecure 4y ago
> Also not having to drop into the command line to change monitor settings is nice. I can't remember the last time I had to do this on Linux. Sometime in the the 90's, I think.
- solardev 4y ago
  I had to do it multiple times with hidpi monitors just a few years back. Not sure about ultrawide, hdr, high refresh rate, gsync, etc.

noodlebear 4y ago

Is this relevant to the submission, or simply a spot you’ve interpreted as a convenient one to air all of your grievances about Macs? I guess not only air them, but state them in a way where only your approach is correct (“erroneous” is inappropriate to apply to a UI decision that differs from your preference, for example)

JacobSeated 4y ago
If you pay attention, you will note the authors of this decided to Ditch KDE and apparently design their own UI, which would be more like Mac. My point is, power users do not really want Mac desktop environment – it is just a "necessary" evil that we are stuck with.
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Their point is your preferences are your preferences. Not obejctive tests for power user status.

baq 4y ago

> always on top, preventing access to other windows. E.g. Password dialogs for encrypted hard drives. this is something that should be done everywhere, if it isn't, it's a potential security issue.

JacobSeated 4y ago
Supposedly the security issue is about copying and pasting passwords. Trust me, the alternative is much, much worse. You do not want users using the same password everywhere. I use a password manager, passwords are encrypted and only briefly available doing the copy / paste operation. It also has an auto-fill option which further limits the attack surface. KDE is much more respectful towards users, because you can actually remove/add the "always on top" flag as needed, and that IS the way it should be.

elcritch 4y ago

Note that you can do "Cut" in Finder by doing "Copy (Cmd-C)" but then using "Alt-Cmd-V". It'll move the file instead of copying. Also, you can also fix the "caps lock" issue by remapping it to "control". Completely fixes the "caps lock" button. It works on Linux too! ;)

kitsunesoba 4y ago
This way of doing copy or move makes a lot of sense since it allows you to change your mind without having to go back to the original file and cut/copy again. Instead, it defers that decision until you get to your destination, where moving the file just takes an extra modifier on top of the usual paste shortcut.
trebbble 4y ago
It only just dawned on me reading this—Windows doesn't actually "cut" files, does it? The behavior's different from "cutting" text. The files remain until you paste, right? Mac's choice makes a ton more sense, in that case, since actually cutting files is probably a bad idea (if you forget to paste, they're gone)
JacobSeated 4y ago
I am aware of that, but the fact is that this is less convenient than a standard "cut", as on other systems, so I honestly never use that. What I do instead is I have two windows open, and then I drag and drop between them. Also less convenient, but better than having to keep an extra hand on the keyboard constantly. And of course, a "always on top" flag would have been really nice for dragging and dropping between windows. That option is really nice in KDE, but missing on both Mac and Windows.

mschuster91 4y ago

> I really miss a decent address bar in finder that can be edited directly Press Command-Shift-G and it will appear as a small window. (I haven't figured out how to do this in a "Open/Save File" dialog, so if anyone can chime in, greatly aprreciated) > "Cut" does not work for files in finder, severely complicating moving files It's annoying that there is no shortcut equivalent, but if you need to actually move a file either drag and drop it, or press Option while right-clicking in the target Finder window - the menu entry will change from "copy here" to "move here". > The Maximize button does not maximize, but instead enters full screen, meaning that I never use it Yuck, yeah. Very irritating. Use SizeUp, well worth the 13 US$.

JacobSeated 4y ago
Command-Shift-G is new to me, but it is too inconvenient, being forced to keep and extra hand on the keyboard for such simple operations. It breaks my normal work-flow when I am on my mac, which is most the time nowadays. There also is a shortcut for moving files, but I do not care about that.

speed_spread 4y ago

100% with you. KDE is the only desktop environment, all platforms confounded, that hasn't sacrificed power user functionality on the altar of streamlined / dumbed-down "design". It's like a race to the bottom to please an elusive lowest common denominator class of users that doesn't exist. I find these other "modern" UIs incredibly condescending. Instead, discoverability should be #1, creating soft, natural learning curve that welcomes new users without capping or hiding advanced functionality.