3 ms·

> So, would people stop making art? An analogy that TFA curiously doesn't touch is the advent of photography. What did it do to painting? Painting became less

by bambax 4y ago

> So, would people stop making art? An analogy that TFA curiously doesn't touch is the advent of photography. What did it do to painting? Painting became less and less figurative as photography became more and more accurate. The point of painting was to represent reality; but as photography became so much more accurate, that point became moot. And so, painting went into a different direction. Represent not reality, but feelings, what the artist feels when looking at reality; something that's out of reach of photography. AI is trying to conquer this as well. Human art needs to go further. Something weird that AI cannot touch.

bsenftner 4y ago
Art that human beings actually care about is not the commercial art many people are referencing here. Art is not pretty pictures. Art is not a expensively produced media. Art is a human communication concerning the realizations of finite life. However, Art being Art, it does not communicate these issues in immature direct language, Art communicates through richly layered metaphor. Real Art, that which moves one's soul, is beyond the capabilities of artificial intelligence for a large number of reasons, chief of which because it is a communication between beings aware of finite existence. Note, I am not saying the consumer markets will not be flooded with cheap mimicry of art as pooped out by ignorant noncomprehending AIs. That will most definitely happen. And a generation of would be fine artists will never pursue their innate vocation thanks to the misconception that AI is capable of creating Art (which it cannot.) However, you do not have to fall for the stupidity most are caught. If you have an artistic vocation, realize that indirection and metaphor are your human creative super powers that AI cannot touch. Metaphor requires comprehension and often complex interwoven comprehensions, which is so far out of AI’s reach it is laughable the general pubic believes otherwise. AIs are idiots when you know them well. They have zero capacity to create Real Art composed of complex metaphors embodied in a form other than how they appear.
- dqpb 4y ago
  > Real Art, that which moves one's soul, is beyond the capabilities of artificial intelligence It’s easy to test. Show people “real” art and AI generated art and see how often they can tell which is which.
  - bsenftner 4y ago
    That won't work. Art is also not a popularity contest.
    - dqpb 4y ago
      Then who is the arbiter of “real” art?
      - bsenftner 4y ago
        Nobody. Does it move your soul? Does it feel important that it exists? Does it matter if someone destroys it? These are answers nobody can collectively make, and that is why Art is simultaneously a grand fraud and the frontier of human reasoning. It cannot be defined because it exists on the edge of reason. The moment it can be created without a human communication behind it, it ceases to be Art.
        dqpb 4y ago
        Some DALL-E art moves my soul. It’s important to me that it exists. It would matter if it was destroyed. So, I guess that settles it.
        bsenftner 4y ago
        Human curated DALL-E art. The AI just generates, the human curators, even if it is you, created the art. Recognition the generation communicates something within is the distinction, that's how "found art" became a thing.
        zasdffaa 4y ago
        I suspect you are going to repeatedly move the goalposts to keep the human in. Perhaps that's right, perhaps not but perhaps also ask yourself why you feel the emotional need to.
- fleddr 4y ago
  "Art being Art, it does not communicate these issues in immature direct language, Art communicates through richly layered metaphor." True, as is seen in the "banana with duct tape".
- visarga 4y ago
  > They have zero capacity to create Real Art composed of complex metaphors embodied in a form other than how they appear. Wait 5 years until the first android AI is being raised as a child and develops first hand embodied and social knowledge.
  - Planktonne 4y ago
    We've been 'waiting for 5 years' on this one for centuries; like so many unrealised technologies, it's apparently always just around the corner.
  - bsenftner 4y ago
    We lack fundamental science, such as no theory at all for artificial comprehension. That "first android baby" within 5 years is theater and fraud. (Which, incidentally could be Art.)
    - visarga 4y ago
      Well, "artificial" does come from "art" (ars + fex = skill + make) > From Middle English artificial (“man-made”) via Old French (modern French artificiel), from Latin artificiālis from artificium (“skill”), from artifex, from ars (“skill”), and -fex, from facere (“to make”). Regarding the artificial baby - I was thinking along the lines of putting the Gato [1] model in an android body. Nothing wild technologically, just give it the experience of having a family, friends, things to do, like we do for kids. This will induce the agent to form the same kind of value judgements as people make. It won't be just trained on the whole internet, but have access to the real world + human society, the best training dataset. I believe the lack of access to the real world, the human society and a humanoid body is what keeps AI models from being more human-like. We can't become a developed human without society, for example. Why would AI be able to? The next step in AI is not about the neural net architecture but the curriculum, especially real world exposure. [1] https://www.deepmind.com/publications/a-generalist-agent https://www.deepmind.com/publications/a-generalist-agent
bsedlm 4y ago
I'm still wating for music to react to recording technology in the way painting reacted to the photographic camera.
- beckingz 4y ago
  Listen to some drum and bass.
  - delusional 4y ago
    I'd argue that Hyperpop is a more direct response to the commercialization of music.
- meneseteung 4y ago
  I don't understand what you're saying here. Music has been in a dialogue with recording technology more or less since the beginning of recording technology.
  - bsedlm 4y ago
    fair enough. I can barely put it into words; but I'm still trying.
- ilammy 4y ago
  Music can be performed. Or rather, performing music is way less boring for an observer than performing painting or sculpture. Of course, speedpainting exists, but performative art is more resistant to being obsoleted by technology.
  - bsedlm 4y ago
    I'm starting from the viewpoint that the whole point of music is observing the performer do it. in contrast, the whole point of paiting or a sculping is the final completed artifact. What I'm trying to get at, is how recording technology "defeats" the purpose of music as its performace; and so, irremediably splits it from it's source (its origin, the composition of the music). I suppose improvisation remains; but highly constrained within prearranged structures (a la "AB[improvisatino goes HERE]C") like in jazz. I do not understand how hyperpop nor DnB are supposed to be a response to what I'm trying to get at (then again, I'm just now barely conveying my point... I hope.)
delusional 4y ago
Art has already been there for ages. I went to see Copenhagen Contemporary's exhibit of light & space and I'd never actually FELT art like that. It was quite exhilarating. Suddenly i understand what people say they feel when they connect with art. That's not what people mean when they talk about AI art though. AI art is Commercial Art. What Horkheimer and Adorno famously called "The Culture Industry".
- lancesells 4y ago
  I think the current output of AI art is mostly commercial but I'm sure an artist will come along and use it in some way different that exceeds the current use. Probably something that doesn't use text prompts or some other clever way.
badloginagain 4y ago
It also pushed art to the niche. Painted images explicitly for children has been a massive industry for decades- also one that mature AI generative art could absolutely dominate. I'd love to see this technology aimed at concept art for games. I don't think this would hurt employed concept artists, I do think it will be a tool concept artists can use to quickly thumbnail significantly more versions of a vision. That artist will then refine the results into something supremely engaging to humans. Really I see this as an incredible tool for artists to help refine truly innovative ideas.
pdntspa 4y ago
If anything, painting has become more stylistic and figurative since photography; impressionism was a direct response to the photorealistic style of painting popular during the renaissance. It freed artists of having to focus on realism, if they wanted to do so.
coffee_beqn 4y ago
I don’t think that’s true though. There’s no reason you can’t prompt an AI to make an image that makes people feel things. One of the very first things I tried was “Mt rainier by Monet” and it certainly made me feel quite serene just like any human made nature art

by bambax 4y ago

bsenftner 4y ago

Art that human beings actually care about is not the commercial art many people are referencing here. Art is not pretty pictures. Art is not a expensively produced media. Art is a human communication concerning the realizations of finite life. However, Art being Art, it does not communicate these issues in immature direct language, Art communicates through richly layered metaphor. Real Art, that which moves one's soul, is beyond the capabilities of artificial intelligence for a large number of reasons, chief of which because it is a communication between beings aware of finite existence. Note, I am not saying the consumer markets will not be flooded with cheap mimicry of art as pooped out by ignorant noncomprehending AIs. That will most definitely happen. And a generation of would be fine artists will never pursue their innate vocation thanks to the misconception that AI is capable of creating Art (which it cannot.) However, you do not have to fall for the stupidity most are caught. If you have an artistic vocation, realize that indirection and metaphor are your human creative super powers that AI cannot touch. Metaphor requires comprehension and often complex interwoven comprehensions, which is so far out of AI’s reach it is laughable the general pubic believes otherwise. AIs are idiots when you know them well. They have zero capacity to create Real Art composed of complex metaphors embodied in a form other than how they appear.

dqpb 4y ago
> Real Art, that which moves one's soul, is beyond the capabilities of artificial intelligence It’s easy to test. Show people “real” art and AI generated art and see how often they can tell which is which.
- bsenftner 4y ago
  That won't work. Art is also not a popularity contest.
  - dqpb 4y ago
    Then who is the arbiter of “real” art?
    - bsenftner 4y ago
      Nobody. Does it move your soul? Does it feel important that it exists? Does it matter if someone destroys it? These are answers nobody can collectively make, and that is why Art is simultaneously a grand fraud and the frontier of human reasoning. It cannot be defined because it exists on the edge of reason. The moment it can be created without a human communication behind it, it ceases to be Art.
      - dqpb 4y ago
        Some DALL-E art moves my soul. It’s important to me that it exists. It would matter if it was destroyed. So, I guess that settles it.
        bsenftner 4y ago
        Human curated DALL-E art. The AI just generates, the human curators, even if it is you, created the art. Recognition the generation communicates something within is the distinction, that's how "found art" became a thing.
        zasdffaa 4y ago
        I suspect you are going to repeatedly move the goalposts to keep the human in. Perhaps that's right, perhaps not but perhaps also ask yourself why you feel the emotional need to.
fleddr 4y ago
"Art being Art, it does not communicate these issues in immature direct language, Art communicates through richly layered metaphor." True, as is seen in the "banana with duct tape".
visarga 4y ago
> They have zero capacity to create Real Art composed of complex metaphors embodied in a form other than how they appear. Wait 5 years until the first android AI is being raised as a child and develops first hand embodied and social knowledge.
- Planktonne 4y ago
  We've been 'waiting for 5 years' on this one for centuries; like so many unrealised technologies, it's apparently always just around the corner.
- bsenftner 4y ago
  We lack fundamental science, such as no theory at all for artificial comprehension. That "first android baby" within 5 years is theater and fraud. (Which, incidentally could be Art.)
  - visarga 4y ago
    Well, "artificial" does come from "art" (ars + fex = skill + make) > From Middle English artificial (“man-made”) via Old French (modern French artificiel), from Latin artificiālis from artificium (“skill”), from artifex, from ars (“skill”), and -fex, from facere (“to make”). Regarding the artificial baby - I was thinking along the lines of putting the Gato [1] model in an android body. Nothing wild technologically, just give it the experience of having a family, friends, things to do, like we do for kids. This will induce the agent to form the same kind of value judgements as people make. It won't be just trained on the whole internet, but have access to the real world + human society, the best training dataset. I believe the lack of access to the real world, the human society and a humanoid body is what keeps AI models from being more human-like. We can't become a developed human without society, for example. Why would AI be able to? The next step in AI is not about the neural net architecture but the curriculum, especially real world exposure. [1] https://www.deepmind.com/publications/a-generalist-agent https://www.deepmind.com/publications/a-generalist-agent

bsedlm 4y ago

I'm still wating for music to react to recording technology in the way painting reacted to the photographic camera.

beckingz 4y ago
Listen to some drum and bass.
- delusional 4y ago
  I'd argue that Hyperpop is a more direct response to the commercialization of music.
meneseteung 4y ago
I don't understand what you're saying here. Music has been in a dialogue with recording technology more or less since the beginning of recording technology.
- bsedlm 4y ago
  fair enough. I can barely put it into words; but I'm still trying.
ilammy 4y ago
Music can be performed. Or rather, performing music is way less boring for an observer than performing painting or sculpture. Of course, speedpainting exists, but performative art is more resistant to being obsoleted by technology.
- bsedlm 4y ago
  I'm starting from the viewpoint that the whole point of music is observing the performer do it. in contrast, the whole point of paiting or a sculping is the final completed artifact. What I'm trying to get at, is how recording technology "defeats" the purpose of music as its performace; and so, irremediably splits it from it's source (its origin, the composition of the music). I suppose improvisation remains; but highly constrained within prearranged structures (a la "AB[improvisatino goes HERE]C") like in jazz. I do not understand how hyperpop nor DnB are supposed to be a response to what I'm trying to get at (then again, I'm just now barely conveying my point... I hope.)

delusional 4y ago

Art has already been there for ages. I went to see Copenhagen Contemporary's exhibit of light & space and I'd never actually FELT art like that. It was quite exhilarating. Suddenly i understand what people say they feel when they connect with art. That's not what people mean when they talk about AI art though. AI art is Commercial Art. What Horkheimer and Adorno famously called "The Culture Industry".

lancesells 4y ago
I think the current output of AI art is mostly commercial but I'm sure an artist will come along and use it in some way different that exceeds the current use. Probably something that doesn't use text prompts or some other clever way.

badloginagain 4y ago

It also pushed art to the niche. Painted images explicitly for children has been a massive industry for decades- also one that mature AI generative art could absolutely dominate. I'd love to see this technology aimed at concept art for games. I don't think this would hurt employed concept artists, I do think it will be a tool concept artists can use to quickly thumbnail significantly more versions of a vision. That artist will then refine the results into something supremely engaging to humans. Really I see this as an incredible tool for artists to help refine truly innovative ideas.

pdntspa 4y ago

If anything, painting has become more stylistic and figurative since photography; impressionism was a direct response to the photorealistic style of painting popular during the renaissance. It freed artists of having to focus on realism, if they wanted to do so.

coffee_beqn 4y ago

I don’t think that’s true though. There’s no reason you can’t prompt an AI to make an image that makes people feel things. One of the very first things I tried was “Mt rainier by Monet” and it certainly made me feel quite serene just like any human made nature art