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Past teenagers had to deal with things like the threat of imminent nuclear war. Or the World Wars. Or the threat of being drafted into Vietnam after graduation.

Past teenagers had to deal with things like the threat of imminent nuclear war. Or the World Wars. Or the threat of being drafted into Vietnam after graduation. There’s much deeper social ills than “the world sucks now.” In purely material comfort terms, they’ve got it better than ever. It’s the social environment that’s deteriorated - and social media is part of that picture.

watwut 4y ago
Neither of those happened in 2009. And world war situation went with higher suicides and mental health issues and such, especially as things got bad. Terrible things happened in the past, but people in the past were not happy about them. They worried, they were depressed, they abused alcohol to feel better, they got violent toward weaker people to blow the steam.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  I’m not arguing that people in the past didn’t get depressed. They certainly did. But the rate of depressions and anxiety vs the material comfort level is exceptional. Suicide rates are the highest they’ve been since WWII and the Great Depression in the US and that’s with nearly a fifth of the population on psychiatric drugs.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Suicides were lowest in 2000 and quite similar in 1950 and 2019. Age adjusted suicide levels are pretty similar now with 1986. Suicide levels during great depression were much higher then now. I just don't see your claim in those data. They go up last 20 years, from the point when they were lowest.
yunwal 4y ago
> In purely material comfort terms, they’ve got it better than ever. This is news to young adults, because as far as we can tell, we won't ever be able to afford a home, and those of us who got conned into college will spend a lifetime of indentured servitude paying off student debt.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  Young adults used to be literal indentured servants, and largely did not experience depression and anxiety as a result even if they hoped for better times.
  - yunwal 4y ago
    Do you, umm, have data backing up that indentured servants don't experience higher rates of anxiety? Seems unlikely
    - tcmart14 4y ago
      The data probably doesnt exist because no one was studying people under indentured servitude. The best you get is the slave owners or holder of the servitude contract going "its great, they love it! Look at my paternalism! Hey slave! Get back to work before I tear skin off bone with a lash!"
      - Amezarak 4y ago
        Indentured servants were largely literate. [NB: Even under slavery, American slaveowners frequently completely disregarded late-stage laws passed against slave literacy in a bout of political hysteria because not only were slaves commonly traditionally taught to read and write, slaves were much more useful if they could read and write. So you can find firsthand accounts from slaves throughout American history as well.] You can read what they thought for yourself. I have been long thinking about how to address comments in this general style. You can see how they happen - we all agree indentured servitude and certainly slavery are fundamental moral wrongs, so grand historical narratives get crafted where each individual as part of the collective suffers all the worst wrongs of the institutional system, rather than accurately representing the average life. "Read more primary sources" is obviously not a feasible solution for a general audience. But briefly, I would say that people can suffer, be unhappy, and feel and be terribly wronged without anxiety and depression, which become more common when basic social needs aren't met. It isn't surprising that anxiety and depression are on the rise when fewer and fewer people live consistently in the same household with the same people embedded in the same community with strong real-world social networks. People can thrive in crushing poverty of the likes the average American has never imagined when those conditions are met. If you aren't satisfied by that, take this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... and compare it with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... In terms of material comforts and opportunities, it seems doubtful that the average American is worse off than the average Congolese, but the American is more likely to kill himself. Some of these countries with lower suicide rates have de facto slavery. And again...a fifth of Americans are also on psychiatric medications that a lot of people can't afford and we're still killing ourselves at this rate.
imtringued 4y ago
Capitalism hates prosperity and abundance, if there is no growth it would rather destroy everything and start growing from a lower base. The crises of capitalism usually begin when everything is going too well, as if it was bad karma to have a properly functioning economy. Every time you hear people complain about too much debt, they are actually complaining that people are saving too much money.
mycall 4y ago
> Past teenagers had to deal with things like the threat of imminent nuclear war That's back on the timeline again.

watwut 4y ago

Neither of those happened in 2009. And world war situation went with higher suicides and mental health issues and such, especially as things got bad. Terrible things happened in the past, but people in the past were not happy about them. They worried, they were depressed, they abused alcohol to feel better, they got violent toward weaker people to blow the steam.

Amezarak 4y ago
I’m not arguing that people in the past didn’t get depressed. They certainly did. But the rate of depressions and anxiety vs the material comfort level is exceptional. Suicide rates are the highest they’ve been since WWII and the Great Depression in the US and that’s with nearly a fifth of the population on psychiatric drugs.
- watwut 4y ago
  Suicides were lowest in 2000 and quite similar in 1950 and 2019. Age adjusted suicide levels are pretty similar now with 1986. Suicide levels during great depression were much higher then now. I just don't see your claim in those data. They go up last 20 years, from the point when they were lowest.

yunwal 4y ago

> In purely material comfort terms, they’ve got it better than ever. This is news to young adults, because as far as we can tell, we won't ever be able to afford a home, and those of us who got conned into college will spend a lifetime of indentured servitude paying off student debt.

Amezarak 4y ago
Young adults used to be literal indentured servants, and largely did not experience depression and anxiety as a result even if they hoped for better times.
- yunwal 4y ago
  Do you, umm, have data backing up that indentured servants don't experience higher rates of anxiety? Seems unlikely
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    The data probably doesnt exist because no one was studying people under indentured servitude. The best you get is the slave owners or holder of the servitude contract going "its great, they love it! Look at my paternalism! Hey slave! Get back to work before I tear skin off bone with a lash!"
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      Indentured servants were largely literate. [NB: Even under slavery, American slaveowners frequently completely disregarded late-stage laws passed against slave literacy in a bout of political hysteria because not only were slaves commonly traditionally taught to read and write, slaves were much more useful if they could read and write. So you can find firsthand accounts from slaves throughout American history as well.] You can read what they thought for yourself. I have been long thinking about how to address comments in this general style. You can see how they happen - we all agree indentured servitude and certainly slavery are fundamental moral wrongs, so grand historical narratives get crafted where each individual as part of the collective suffers all the worst wrongs of the institutional system, rather than accurately representing the average life. "Read more primary sources" is obviously not a feasible solution for a general audience. But briefly, I would say that people can suffer, be unhappy, and feel and be terribly wronged without anxiety and depression, which become more common when basic social needs aren't met. It isn't surprising that anxiety and depression are on the rise when fewer and fewer people live consistently in the same household with the same people embedded in the same community with strong real-world social networks. People can thrive in crushing poverty of the likes the average American has never imagined when those conditions are met. If you aren't satisfied by that, take this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... and compare it with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... In terms of material comforts and opportunities, it seems doubtful that the average American is worse off than the average Congolese, but the American is more likely to kill himself. Some of these countries with lower suicide rates have de facto slavery. And again...a fifth of Americans are also on psychiatric medications that a lot of people can't afford and we're still killing ourselves at this rate.

imtringued 4y ago

Capitalism hates prosperity and abundance, if there is no growth it would rather destroy everything and start growing from a lower base. The crises of capitalism usually begin when everything is going too well, as if it was bad karma to have a properly functioning economy. Every time you hear people complain about too much debt, they are actually complaining that people are saving too much money.

mycall 4y ago

> Past teenagers had to deal with things like the threat of imminent nuclear war That's back on the timeline again.