4 ms·

I know of 2 the persons you have linked are using steroids, I don't recommend anyone taking them. Certainly not if the goal of exercise is health.

radu_floricica 4y ago
Which ones and how do you know? I'm actually curious, the reaction to steroids is a bit... one sided. It's a bit of a PR problem to say positive things about them, and it feels. The consensus, the one we get to hear, is pretty clear: they work very well, but they have side effects that make using them a bad idea. And I actually trust this consensus. Unfortunately, what I don't see is obvious next steps like "ok, so how about we lower the dose and see if there's a useful dosage without long term side-effects". Or "how about we try to test if a certain person has risk factors to side effects" and so on. That kind of conversation is unfortunately... well, not verbotten, but at least self-censored. Anyways, this is just intellectual curiosity. I'm not into bodybuilding enough to try, and tbh I actually doubt they're using it either. It'd be too much like cheating - the whole point is to find out what works, and everybody knows steroids work so there's nothing to find out there.
- mister_mister 4y ago
  Because I've actually watched their content, Some of them are open about it, some are not. Other commenters in this thread now about it. But you are not aware while linking their content? But selling programs based on pictures that have been achieved with steroids is not helpful for getting people to optimal health. Some of the people behind linked programs even have life altering injuries from the strain of working out with steroids. The original article is about daily exercise. The issue with steroids is that they can alter your body organs permanently. https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/steroids-other-appearance-performance-enhancing-drugs-apeds/what-are-side-effects-anabolic-steroid-misuse https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/steroids-... " Cardiovascular system high blood pressure blood clots heart attacks stroke artery damage Hormonal system Men decreased sperm production enlarged breasts shrinking of the testicles male-pattern baldness testicular cancer Women voice deepening decreased breast size coarse skin excessive body hair growth male-pattern baldness "
  - radu_floricica 4y ago
    Not what I was asking. I know the effects of steroids. I don't know what every person on that list is saying about them because, frankly, I don't really care about steroids that much. They're way beyond my reasonable cost-benefit window, I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples, because I'm curious. But since you changed the topic, just for fun and the sake of the conversation. From your link: > A variety of side effects can occur when anabolic steroids are misused, ranging from mild effects to ones that are harmful or even life-threatening. Most are reversible if the user stops taking the drugs. However, others may be permanent or semi-permanent. This can actually apply to a wide variety of things. Remember all the drug scare about "drug abuse"? It's technically true - you can abuse most recreational drugs, including cannabis, and you can definitely fuck up your life on meth. And yet now, 10-20 years later, we have cannabis cookies free for sale, and quite a lot of ADHD people medicating themselves quite successfully with Adderall. There's a big difference between use, misuse and abuse. Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely. My instincts say "yes, probably, but no idea how". The people in the list above pretty uniformly say "no". Which is why I was hoping you'd point me to different opinions.
    - mister_mister 4y ago
      "I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples" That is great example you found, there way more. Because creatine is one of most research supplement. It is safe with clear benefits[0]. Since they are using steroids they might miss the clear effects of creatine and are giving information that is incorrect and therefor harmful. What science is actually saying that creatine is safe and can not only help with muscles it can also help with brain performance[1]. > Creatine is one of the most popular nutritional ergogenic aids for athletes. Studies have consistently shown that creatine supplementation increases intramuscular creatine concentrations which may help explain the observed improvements in high intensity exercise performance leading to greater training adaptations. In addition to athletic and exercise improvement, research has shown that creatine supplementation may enhance post-exercise recovery, injury prevention, thermoregulation, rehabilitation, and concussion and/or spinal cord neuroprotection. Additionally, a number of clinical applications of creatine supplementation have been studied involving neurodegenerative diseases (e.g., muscular dystrophy, Parkinson’s, Huntington’s disease), diabetes, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, aging, brain and heart ischemia, adolescent depression, and pregnancy. These studies provide a large body of evidence that creatine can not only improve exercise performance, but can play a role in preventing and/or reducing the severity of injury, enhancing rehabilitation from injuries, and helping athletes tolerate heavy training loads. Additionally, researchers have identified a number of potentially beneficial clinical uses of creatine supplementation. For almost anyone that is not training hard their body is still in what is called the nooby phase, where incredible growth in power, size, endurance can happen. After 1 of 2 years of training this will stop however and gains will be become more difficult. Within that period anyone can get the feeling as if they are taking steroids. unto your question: > Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely If you are able to source Medical grade steroids, from reputable sellers. And you have health professionals, and doing regular blood work. Then yes it can be safely done. And you'll need good sporting coach to make sure you won't strain your joints too much. Many athletes take them without the above, because their livelihood depends on it. But there are young people dying because they buy programs that only work for enhanced people. And they are failing to progress with that program and start using weird pills from the internet that are containing many weird substances. You don't know what you are going to get. And with drugs you can at least feel the effects, but can't feel the difference between different steroids or other molecules interacting with your organs. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5469049/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5469049/ [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/
kazga 4y ago
Mike Israetel is very vocal and open about both his own PED use and its health risks, and how taking them is a very bad idea for 99.9% of people. That does not make his content about exercising and nutrition for general health any less superb. Steroids a fact of life in strength sports and not even really considered cheating, as long as you compete in "untested" divisions. Training for a top-level competition is not the same as exercising for health, even if you don't take PEDs. The people doing it consider it an acceptable tradeoff.
- mister_mister 4y ago
  The original article is encouraging that even little bit of daily exercise is great. But the links are about doing conventional gym stuff. If you take steroids your body will respond different then normal people. Using steroids and then to promote your programs that act like it's possible to achieve them without is dangerous. The strain they will be able to put on their bodies are not the same as without. Even with steroids the strain is so high it can lead to serious life changing injuries like at least one the some of the linked have found out. There many young people that have used steroids and have completely worn out joints.
  - kazga 4y ago
    >Using steroids and then to promote your programs that act like it's possible to achieve them without is dangerous. Which one of the linked resources is doing that? The deception part, I mean.
    - mister_mister 4y ago
      Obviously since some of them dance around the topic, and won't say outright say it. We just have the occasional hiccups during interviews where they give it away. naturals shouldn't take advice from people that juiced up. The amount of volume they can do bizarre, and way more then naturals can do. The wear and tear on the ligaments, joints and spine is dangerous. It's even dangerous for them, at least one of them got very badly hurt.

radu_floricica 4y ago

Which ones and how do you know? I'm actually curious, the reaction to steroids is a bit... one sided. It's a bit of a PR problem to say positive things about them, and it feels. The consensus, the one we get to hear, is pretty clear: they work very well, but they have side effects that make using them a bad idea. And I actually trust this consensus. Unfortunately, what I don't see is obvious next steps like "ok, so how about we lower the dose and see if there's a useful dosage without long term side-effects". Or "how about we try to test if a certain person has risk factors to side effects" and so on. That kind of conversation is unfortunately... well, not verbotten, but at least self-censored. Anyways, this is just intellectual curiosity. I'm not into bodybuilding enough to try, and tbh I actually doubt they're using it either. It'd be too much like cheating - the whole point is to find out what works, and everybody knows steroids work so there's nothing to find out there.

mister_mister 4y ago
Because I've actually watched their content, Some of them are open about it, some are not. Other commenters in this thread now about it. But you are not aware while linking their content? But selling programs based on pictures that have been achieved with steroids is not helpful for getting people to optimal health. Some of the people behind linked programs even have life altering injuries from the strain of working out with steroids. The original article is about daily exercise. The issue with steroids is that they can alter your body organs permanently. https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/steroids-other-appearance-performance-enhancing-drugs-apeds/what-are-side-effects-anabolic-steroid-misuse https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/steroids-... " Cardiovascular system high blood pressure blood clots heart attacks stroke artery damage Hormonal system Men decreased sperm production enlarged breasts shrinking of the testicles male-pattern baldness testicular cancer Women voice deepening decreased breast size coarse skin excessive body hair growth male-pattern baldness "
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  Not what I was asking. I know the effects of steroids. I don't know what every person on that list is saying about them because, frankly, I don't really care about steroids that much. They're way beyond my reasonable cost-benefit window, I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples, because I'm curious. But since you changed the topic, just for fun and the sake of the conversation. From your link: > A variety of side effects can occur when anabolic steroids are misused, ranging from mild effects to ones that are harmful or even life-threatening. Most are reversible if the user stops taking the drugs. However, others may be permanent or semi-permanent. This can actually apply to a wide variety of things. Remember all the drug scare about "drug abuse"? It's technically true - you can abuse most recreational drugs, including cannabis, and you can definitely fuck up your life on meth. And yet now, 10-20 years later, we have cannabis cookies free for sale, and quite a lot of ADHD people medicating themselves quite successfully with Adderall. There's a big difference between use, misuse and abuse. Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely. My instincts say "yes, probably, but no idea how". The people in the list above pretty uniformly say "no". Which is why I was hoping you'd point me to different opinions.
  - mister_mister 4y ago
    "I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples" That is great example you found, there way more. Because creatine is one of most research supplement. It is safe with clear benefits[0]. Since they are using steroids they might miss the clear effects of creatine and are giving information that is incorrect and therefor harmful. What science is actually saying that creatine is safe and can not only help with muscles it can also help with brain performance[1]. > Creatine is one of the most popular nutritional ergogenic aids for athletes. Studies have consistently shown that creatine supplementation increases intramuscular creatine concentrations which may help explain the observed improvements in high intensity exercise performance leading to greater training adaptations. In addition to athletic and exercise improvement, research has shown that creatine supplementation may enhance post-exercise recovery, injury prevention, thermoregulation, rehabilitation, and concussion and/or spinal cord neuroprotection. Additionally, a number of clinical applications of creatine supplementation have been studied involving neurodegenerative diseases (e.g., muscular dystrophy, Parkinson’s, Huntington’s disease), diabetes, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, aging, brain and heart ischemia, adolescent depression, and pregnancy. These studies provide a large body of evidence that creatine can not only improve exercise performance, but can play a role in preventing and/or reducing the severity of injury, enhancing rehabilitation from injuries, and helping athletes tolerate heavy training loads. Additionally, researchers have identified a number of potentially beneficial clinical uses of creatine supplementation. For almost anyone that is not training hard their body is still in what is called the nooby phase, where incredible growth in power, size, endurance can happen. After 1 of 2 years of training this will stop however and gains will be become more difficult. Within that period anyone can get the feeling as if they are taking steroids. unto your question: > Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely If you are able to source Medical grade steroids, from reputable sellers. And you have health professionals, and doing regular blood work. Then yes it can be safely done. And you'll need good sporting coach to make sure you won't strain your joints too much. Many athletes take them without the above, because their livelihood depends on it. But there are young people dying because they buy programs that only work for enhanced people. And they are failing to progress with that program and start using weird pills from the internet that are containing many weird substances. You don't know what you are going to get. And with drugs you can at least feel the effects, but can't feel the difference between different steroids or other molecules interacting with your organs. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5469049/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5469049/ [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/

kazga 4y ago

Mike Israetel is very vocal and open about both his own PED use and its health risks, and how taking them is a very bad idea for 99.9% of people. That does not make his content about exercising and nutrition for general health any less superb. Steroids a fact of life in strength sports and not even really considered cheating, as long as you compete in "untested" divisions. Training for a top-level competition is not the same as exercising for health, even if you don't take PEDs. The people doing it consider it an acceptable tradeoff.

mister_mister 4y ago
The original article is encouraging that even little bit of daily exercise is great. But the links are about doing conventional gym stuff. If you take steroids your body will respond different then normal people. Using steroids and then to promote your programs that act like it's possible to achieve them without is dangerous. The strain they will be able to put on their bodies are not the same as without. Even with steroids the strain is so high it can lead to serious life changing injuries like at least one the some of the linked have found out. There many young people that have used steroids and have completely worn out joints.
- kazga 4y ago
  >Using steroids and then to promote your programs that act like it's possible to achieve them without is dangerous. Which one of the linked resources is doing that? The deception part, I mean.
  - mister_mister 4y ago
    Obviously since some of them dance around the topic, and won't say outright say it. We just have the occasional hiccups during interviews where they give it away. naturals shouldn't take advice from people that juiced up. The amount of volume they can do bizarre, and way more then naturals can do. The wear and tear on the ligaments, joints and spine is dangerous. It's even dangerous for them, at least one of them got very badly hurt.