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I have mixed feelings on this. There are of course things that aren't explicitly prohibited by workplace policies but are no doubt unacceptable - e.g. discrimi
by ummonk 4y ago
I have mixed feelings on this.
There are of course things that aren't explicitly prohibited by workplace policies but are no doubt unacceptable - e.g. discriminating against left-handed employees. But it's still useful to have explicit policies against caste discrimination to make clear that it's unacceptable.
On the other hand, as an Indian in a top tech company we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare), and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism.
Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism.
- strken 4y agoAre you in a caste that's likely to experience discrimination? Or is this widely accepted among people who'd be vulnerable to caste discrimination?
- ummonk 4y agoI'm from a middle-caste - one that currently qualifies for affirmative action quotas in my ancestral state in India, but is reasonably well off economically. Most Indian tech workers with caste names I can recognize are either Brahmin (priestly caste - highest in the ritual hierarchy, though often poor), or Agarwal (middle-caste but extremely wealthy). I eat meat. Most of the upper castes traditionally don't, but a lot of Brahmins for example eat vegetables. If I went to an orthodox village or town in India, I would likely face discrimination from Brahmins. On the other hand, in educated circles in cosmopolitan cities in India, caste is unlikely to really come up. The one thing that could come up is diet though - in some regions of India, many or even most landlords (including "lower" caste ones) would deny me housing because I cook meat at home and bring non-vegetarian food home. In America, most landlords won't care, but many vegetarian students / residents do insist on vegetarian roommates (likely more because they don't like the smell of meat than due to the religious vegetarian fanaticism that's seen in some parts of India). Is it possible that dalits (historically untouchables, who constitute something like 2% of Indian-Americans from surveys I've seen) could be discriminated against in top tech companies in America, unlike me? Yeah it's possible. But I'm skeptical, if only because few Indians could tell apart a dalit from someone like me, given the amount of diversity you see in top tech companies - someone from one region of India won't recognize dalit surnames from another region of India. I could, however, see it coming up in some of the less competitive tech companies, where you tend to see more clustering of people from individual regions of India. I have also heard reports (some from friends of friends) of heavy discrimination by more tight-knit ethnic / caste groups in the diaspora that don't tend to work as engineers in tech - e.g. Jatts in the Central Valley or Patels.
- havblue 4y ago>Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism. I was wondering if you could clarify this. Why is the caste system fair game to criticize but nepotism isn't?
- ummonk 4y agoI didn't say either was fair game to criticize. Criticism of both tends to provide cover to or be motivated by racism. Especially when there isn't equal emphasis on WASP or Jewish nepotism, when most early tech companies tended to have mostly WASP or Jewish leadership.
- claytongulick 4y ago> Criticism of both tends to provide cover to or be motivated by racism. Good example of association fallacy [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
- mlyle 4y agoI think even in diverse workplaces, there are a whole lot of islands of one ethnicity or another-- including very, very white groups. More than you would get by chance. This means a whole lot of racist personnel decisions are being made in all directions, and in a diverse workplace they kind of net-out OK? In any case, ignoring one awful problem because there are others that may be of higher magnitude (or may not...) doesn't seem like a good plan.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare) I have seen zero evidence for this. The relative or absolute frequency claims. > this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism Strongly disagree. I have Indian heritage. I have no problem with such policy, and am increasingly convinced—in part by comments like this—that it needs the force of statute. (It’s almost certainly already law.) Also, non-Indians can discriminate based on caste, albeit indirectly, if their information flows through biased channels. The same way someone not racist can further racism if a bigot runs on of their teams.
- ummonk 4y agoIf I lived in India I'd be OBC. No Indian coworker (some of whom have had Brahmin last names) has ever asked my caste (white people have on occasion, but only out of harmless curiosity), or showed any signs of discriminating against me over it. I have encountered occasional racism in my career on the other hand. Nobody I know in real life has any experiences of casteism in top tech companies to report, but some do report experiences of racism.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Nobody I know in real life has any experiences of casteism But there are people claiming discrimination based on caste. It’s the matter of an ongoing landmark lawsuit [1]. Personal experience is a bad filter because it’s shaped by the same factors we’re measuring. I haven’t experienced real racism because I’ve consistently been in environments removed from racists. I recognise, however, that other environments exist. [1] https://hulr.org/spring-2021/caste-in-cisco-understanding-caste-in-america https://hulr.org/spring-2021/caste-in-cisco-understanding-ca...
- snickerbockers 4y ago>(It’s almost certainly already law.) Is it? I suppose this will vary depending on which country we're talking about, but as far as i know there's nothing in the US that makes it illegal to discriminate based on caste unless the determination of caste overlaps with another -ism, like race.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- throwaway6734 4y agoHow is talking about Indian nepotism inherently racist?
- shapefrog 4y ago
- ummonk 4y agoI'm from a "backwards" caste that would qualify me for affirmative action benefits in my ancestral state in India.
- FlyingSnake 4y agoHN can never has a coherent discussion about casteism in modern India OR in NRI populations because they lack the nuance and lived experience required to understand how jati system works. Indians are more likely to be affected by racism than casteism in the west.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Indians are more likely to be affected by racism than casteism in the west Should we ignore sexism faced by black women because they’re more likely to be racially discriminated against?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ummonk 4y agoNo, but we can (and black women do) talk about how concerns about sexism get wielded disproportionately against black men. It's intersectionality 101.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> we can (and black women do) talk about how concerns about sexism get wielded disproportionately against black men. It's intersectionality 101. None of which is relevant to the frequency at which black women experience racism versus sexism.
- bart_spoon 4y agoWhy is it racist to discuss Indian nepotism? Racism can often take the form of an individual giving preferred status to others who share their own race over others, and examples are frequently, rightfully, pointed out when white people give preferred status over non-whites. But if white people are capable of doing this, is it really that unbelievable that non-white individuals and groups are also capable of this? If not, then how is pointing out racism perpetrated by Indian individuals, itself, a racist act?
- steve_taylor 4y agoDid we avoid explicitly banning racial discrimination because there might be a backlash against non-whites? Nope.
- snickerbockers 4y agoThis is kinda a dumb argument, but if we have to constantly be reminded not to be racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamophobic, etc we might as well throw casteist into the mix. I'm actually feeling a little schadenfreude now that there's finally an -ism where i'm not part of the demographic that's the "bad guy".
- Manuel_D 4y ago> and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism. Is it? Do Whites get singled out and scrutinized for anti-black racism? Maybe they do, but if it is I doubt it's a significant phenomenon.
- ummonk 4y agoI can’t speak to what whites experience on a personal level, but I can say that my company paid Robin deAngelo to give a talk on “white fragility”, which I found rather offensive, and I’m not even white.