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Ask HN: Applying to jobs. How to negotiate a salary for less pay, to min wage?

2 points by ditherblur 4y ago

This probably sounds stupid; let me explain. I live in NJ near NYC. A quick google search tells me that the average SWE salary in NYC is around $132k. Looking at the current "Who is hiring" thread, at a glance, it seems that most salaries range from $75k to $250k+ from just the few that list them. I want to work these same jobs at minimum wage, meaning around $27k. Why? Because I want things to be "calmer." I want to know that I'll have an easier time applying and getting hired faster than other applicants at my same skill level because I'm willing to work for much less than expected. I want to know that I'll be less likely to be let go during downsizing because I work at less pay than others at the same level. I want to know that I'm more valued at a company because the cost to keep me around is so low that if they have a bad quarter, they think of me last to get rid of. I want management to know that I will not jump ship as soon as someone else offers me higher pay; I love stability and consistency. By asking for lesser pay, I don't want to communicate that I'm going to slack off but that I want to work at a lower salary in exchange for work to be "calmer," like being able to afford to work my own pace just a little bit. And by working at my own pace, I'm not trying to phrase getting distracted playing games on the job as working at my pace but that I'm taking some more time to read, take notes, and planning things out more to make the process "calmer." I know a lot of people who work at a high salary (for example, say $90k, to me already a lot of money, but I know it's not enough to some), who spend most of the day doing "nothing." Like getting a mouse jiggler to simulate that they're at meetings. Or they spend most of the time watching shows or playing games while doing the occasional ticket (but are the most likely to be let go when the company has a bad quarter or during a recession). If I'm willing to work the same way and things are "calm" enough, why not just go for the extra money? Because I want the guarantees of everything to be "calmer," and I'm more than happy to forgo any extra pay for more "calmness." At the onset of applying, I never had the opportunity to phrase this as a competitive advantage, so I'm competing as if I want that higher pay, but I don't. I love the structure and feel of these jobs (I don't want to freelance or anything similar). How can I convey these feelings without causing people to think I'm being silly? Or to even suggest this without causing hiring to think I'm unqualified/have imposter syndrome or whatever? I'm writing this at 3 am and trying to brainstorm better ways to express myself than a weird-sounding email that will probably get ignored saying, "hey, that job you posted, I'll do it for min wage."

groffee 4y ago
If you do that you'll come across as mentally challenged. And the next guy? He'll do it for $26K. And the next guy (or gal) desperate for a job will do it for $25K. A lot of places in the US don't even have minimum wage! It'll be a race to the bottom, it's already a struggle competing with developers in countries with lower living costs. How are you going to support yourself or a family on minimum wage? And wtf does 'calmer' even mean? You've either no experience at all in industry or you're burnt out, either way you need professional help (counseling) to help recognize your worth.
- ditherblur 4y ago
  That's why I mentioned min wage. You're right about the race to the bottom, and I feel pretty pessemtic about the future since if you don't have to stay in the US, the incentives really are there to outsource. But I know outsourcing isn't reasonable or posibble for everyone so there always be work that has to get done here, and at least in my state, it'll be at the lowest for min wage. I don't have a better explanation for "calmer" for now besides what I wrote about being hired faster/less likely to be fired/put under performance review or something like. I'm still trying to brainstorm the ideas in a better way and I don't want it to be specific to any particular job. (What would "calmer" look like for a full stack web developer? a product manager? a system designer? It doesn't matter but I still have to find a better way to explain it in general, maybe slower/low-stress is a better word but it always ends up as a fuzzy term that doesn't lend itself well for explaining how it's any different than regular work)
whythre 4y ago
Why minimum wage, specifically? If you are really worth 120k+ it seems bizarre that you would just point to some old pre-inflation standard of pay and say ‘that, pay me that.’ In any case, it seems that it would take a fair amount of effort to convince a potential employer that this isn’t a weird stunt or scam. Your stated goal is to have a ‘calmer’ hiring experience, but this idea seems like it will have the opposite result.
- ditherblur 4y ago

jstx1 4y ago

> Why? Because I want things to be "calmer." (...) Because I want the guarantees of everything to be "calmer," and I'm more than happy to forgo any extra pay for more "calmness." This is not a thing. There's no reason why min wage should make things calmer. If you manage to get it (and that's a big if), you'll have the same working conditions as everyone else but at a lower salary. Companies/manager don't adjust their expectations that way. Look for companies/teams that are super chilled out in general (they exist like you said); if you go for the salary angle, you'll most likely come across weird and probably won't get the job at all. > I'm writing this at 3 am Because who in their right mind thinks "minimum wage people are having it great, they're the ones treated the best by their employers".

ditherblur 4y ago
> if you go for the salary angle, you'll most likely come across weird and probably won't get the job at all. You're right, that's why I've never voiced the idea in practice but I wish I could somehow. Even if companies couldn't adjust expectations than at least the hiring process would be easier, given a pool of the same quality of applicants, you'd pick the cheapest one. And during downsizing, in another pool of same quality applicants, you let go the pricer ones go first. Thanks for the comment, I gotta try and brainstorm ways to better pitch this feeling without people immediately think it's a scam. > Look for companies/teams that are super chilled out in general (they exist like you said); that's the plan but I feeling like tech is going to take a big hit in the coming economic downturn and just wish I could turn my willingness to work for lower pay into a competitive advantage
ditherblur 4y ago
> > I'm writing this at 3 am > Because who in their right mind thinks "minimum wage people are having it great, they're the ones treated the best by their employers". I agree with you, that's why I didn't want to try and go for actual current min wage jobs. They always feel hectic and lack the structure that the higher paid jobs have that I love. I know min wage isn't ideal for many, if any but for my personal lifestyle, it would be more enough right now.

freemint 4y ago

By asking what you are asking you are challenging people on Hacker News in multiple ways. You mighht be perceived as "undermining" the market position of others programmers. You are also undermining the mythlogy of "working hard". Prepare for vitriol or being silenced. A mostly copmpatible way to accomplish this is to ask for 2 or 3 days of week at what salery they offer, however those days might still be stressful. Only working 4 hours a day, 5 days a week with some flexibleness might also be possible. In either configuration you can not "hang out" at the office as this time will need to be paid because of anti-exploitation laws. In many bigger companies there are salery ranges and bureaucracy like that. Fighting to overcome them is not worth the savings for the company. Companies also pay a lot of non wage costs to keep seats filled, such as IT support, licenses, hardware, health insurance ... All those can impose constraints which make it impossible for you to be hired. Good health insurance might be unavailable for people with little income. The internal procedural cost of hiring a person might be bigger with your special needs, so hiring will not be quicker. Look for smaller companies/NGOs <<50 employees. It is easier to talk to an actual human there vs talking to internalized procedures. Look for cooperatives. There any management structure is more likely aligned with the employees. If a majority of employees is sympathetic with your constraints management (in so far there is one) can easily adapt. > I know a lot of people who work at a high salary (for example, say $90k, to me already a lot of money, but I know it's not enough to some), who spend most of the day doing "nothing." Often those people are kept on staff for peak times by wanting things to be calmer at peak times you would reduce your utility a lot. - You might need to bypass formal mechanisms through the same mechanism cronyism usually uses to bypass formal mechanisms. This could involve knowing people before you apply. Just walk in and talk to someone (viable for < 20 people companies). Maybe know the owner beforehand. Meetups and social gatherings relevant to your industry are a place i would frequent. Yes, that will take effort. - If possible give presentations (if you are not bad at presentations) about stuff you worked on in the past in front of an technical audience. This is a social proof of competence to the attendees. Recordings are a bit less powerful proof of skill and getting people to watch those recordings might not be easy. - Challange a few head hunters with your request, most will be irritated but maybe someone knows someone how knows someone who would be worth a talk. - Assuming you are talking to an actual human (vs a procedure) To overcome the "unqualified hypothesis" you need to have a CV, demos and a presentation (not a slide deck but how you speak and behave) which oozes the premise: "I am competent. I can demonstrate you i am competent. I like office culture over remote work (if that's true). However i require some special accomodations." I would not make "and i get paid less" part of your pitch. You mentioned your special needs and ask whether the other side can accomodate them and insists on getting them in writing in your employment contract. - Communicate clearly that you are not disabled. You do not want the other side expecting or assuming that you are. - Why not bring up the reduced salery yourself? If they are unwilling to accomodate your needs and would have been convinced to by the lower salery they would not respect your needs. Anyone who tries to accomodate your needs and hire you would do think about bringing a salery reduction up themselves. Do not say "minimum wage", just negotiate on the accomodations and see how the other side wants to reduce the salery in turn once you shown some flexibility with the wage after they asked you whether you would be willing to reduce the wage.