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I started studying Japanese in 2020 with 「みんなの日本語」(Minna no Nihongo). The book is entirely in Japanese and only assumes that you can read hiragana/katakana and

I started studying Japanese in 2020 with 「みんなの日本語」(Minna no Nihongo). The book is entirely in Japanese and only assumes that you can read hiragana/katakana and have access to a dictionary for JP -> your native language. The book also includes an audio CD of each of the lessons to practice listening comprehension. I used the two books, audio CDs, and an excellent YouTube channel called "Nihongoal" that provides supplementary lessons to each chapter in English. In 2 years of daily study I have a better command of Japanese than I did in Chinese, my college major... Admittedly the Chinese study has helped me immensely with Kanji. When you study Japanese in Japanese you are constantly reinforcing prior knowledge while acquiring new concepts. Minna no Nihongo does an excellent job of pacing these concepts in a way that is powerful but not overwhelming to a foreigner learning the language. I guess I am just a bit apprehensive to teaching Japanese in English because of how much efficiency you loose in that concept reinforcement. If you want to learn words and phrases this approach might work, but if you want to actually speak the language I feel that its going to take a lot longer.

drshapeless 4y ago
Does knowing Chinese helps when learning Japanese? My Chinese is already quite good, and I am looking for another Asian language to learn.
- elldoubleyew 4y ago
  Only with Kanji. Many share the same meaning, and onyomi reading often sounds a little bit like modern mandarin, but the kunyomi readings are exclusively Japanese and you'll have to memorize those separately (Wanikani was helpful for me in this). For grammar you are out of luck. Japanese is a much more grammar heavy language than Chinese, typically much more complex.
- crumpled 4y ago
  Knowing Chinese Kanji gives a lot of insight into Japanese Kanji, which is borrowed from Chinese. Some of the meanings are exactly the same
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  For written Japanese, a lot (for the kanji). For spoken Japanese, it helps with the words that were borrowed from Chinese — and this is a lot, perhaps 50%. But pronunciation is, obviously, recognizable, but differing. For such words (those that consist of characters that are pronounced using the so called on-yomi reading), you're likely to pick on the sound conversion from Chinese to Japanese and vice versa, and at that point make educated guesses to the meaning of those words. That leaves pure Japanese readings of words of course (which includes almost all verbs excluding the nouns that are verbified by suffixing with an inflection of suru), but it helps in the basis.
toto444 4y ago
If you like material that teaches Japanese in Japanese you might like this website : https://drdru.github.io/stories/intro.html https://drdru.github.io/stories/intro.html . It uses emoji to introduce new words, uses them over and over in simple short stories to reinforce them and let you guess the grammar from the context. (Disclaimer : it's mine :-) )
- elldoubleyew 4y ago
  I looked through the first 4 pages and its cute! I think this could certainly be helpful to someone getting their feet wet with really studying the language. One of the reasons I tend to hold MNN as gospel is the way that it doesn't treat you like a child. The conversations are very realistic to what you would hear in modern spoken Japanese, with Keigo and all of the clunkiness that comes with it from lesson 1. I noticed your disclaimer: "Despite being in the form of stories the Japanese used is beginner Japanese and may not reflect the way native speakers would express themselves. " If its not used by native speakers, why learn it this way? Maybe they could understand you if you spoke like this, but you would be unlikely to understand them without the need to speak to you as if you were 4 years old.
  - toto444 4y ago
    You forgot the second part of this disclaimer is : "As the vocabulary and grammar expands it becomes closer to native speech.". > If its not used by native speakers, why learn it this way? Starting with small simplified building block and then refining them is pretty much what every textbook of every discipline out there does isn't it? (Not saying MNN does not do what you claim. I know it is really good but have never used it )
elric 4y ago
Is it still in print? The usual book stores all seem to be out.
- timr 4y ago
  Yes. You can get it on amazon, or at Kinokuniya, if you have one near you. It's also ubiquitous in Japan. There are also PDFs of it floating around the internet...
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
This is the same reason a lot of alternative JP learning resources recommend against traditional resources (sometimes even native textbooks, tangibly related) and favor sheer immersion instead. It's the same way many non-English speakers learned English as kids before their schools even start teaching them English. Formal education can still fill in the gaps where necessary or cover areas not usually covered in daily life, but it tends to work better as a supplement rather than the bulk of learning. I too am against it in general, and given the sheer volume of vocabulary and little quirks required to understand Japanese, you'd probably do yourself a massive disservice waiting to dive in any longer than necessary.
ziddoap 4y ago
>I started studying Japanese [...] assumes that you can read hiragana/katakana Can you explain how this works? This sounds like you were familiar with Japanese, not "started studying". >When you study Japanese in Japanese I've heard this before (with other languages, as well) but just can't wrap my head around it. The only example I can think of is full immersion (e.g. moving to Japan or wherever you're learning the language) and being surrounded by it 24/7, where context clues sort of boot-strap you into learning more. But how does this work without full immersion?
- dymk 4y ago
  One can learn the kana in a few weeks to a month, depending on how diligently one studies. It's akin to learning a new alphabet (although with quite a few more characters), but it's almost fully phonetic. Know the sounds the mora make, and you can (basically) pronounce the word, and certainly be able to look up the meaning in a dictionary. It's the first step to learning the written language without actually knowing what anything means, and lets you bootstrap Kanji learning as well. Learning Japanese through immersion doesn't necessarily mean getting thrown in the deep end watching TV, reading newspapers, etc. A just-starting beginner would understand none of that. This other key to language acquisition is comprehensible input, meaning you're just barely pushing the boundaries of what you're reading / hearing. Adult learners have decades of context to lean on from their native language, and so a good language learning resource will leverage that knowledge as well. みんなの日本語 starts with the very basics and builds from there. Same with Pimsleur (for the spoken language) which contains minimal English.
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    I guess I'm just getting hung up on "started learning", which comes a few weeks or month after already learning all of the characters. It sounds like the OP is suggesting to learn hiragana/katakana first, then continue with their recommended book. Which makes total sense! And the OP probably left it out because that's the sensible thing to do. But as someone who only speaks one language, I was a bit confused on where I would actually start.
timr 4y ago
Also learned from MNN. It's worth pointing out that there are companion books that explain the grammar points in English (also many other languages - different books for different languages). Here's a link to eBay for the companion book for the first volume in English (couldn't find it on amazon, for whatever reason): https://www.ebay.com/itm/ha0793-Minna-no-Nihongo-1-English-Translation-Grammar-Notes-Minnano-Nihongo/161372870321 https://www.ebay.com/itm/ha0793-Minna-no-Nihongo-1-English-T... The grammar note books are invaluable...MNN can be a little challenging if you don't think like a Japanese person, or have a native teacher to help decipher the content. But they're also dangerous, because you can spend too much time in them at the expense of the actual textbook (I know this from direct experience). MNN is not my favorite (I recommend Genki for native English speakers), but I agree 100% with OP about learning Japanese from an English-language book. It is a waste of time. Learn hiragana and katakana (you can do this in a couple weeks) and dive into full grammatical immersion. There is no other way.
bovermyer 4y ago
How would you get a grasp of grammar rules, though? And things like counting-words (e.g., "-kai")? And how do you know if your understanding of a given sentence is correct?
- elldoubleyew 4y ago
  Grammar rules start by learning verb conjugations, these can be learned through tables, although there are some exceptions you will have to learn individually. This is an excellent free tool for practicing those (not mine, just something I've used): https://baileysnyder.com/jconj/ https://baileysnyder.com/jconj/ For structural grammar there are a lot of different routes to go about this, MNN teaches these pretty well in my opinion. I tried using bunpro (https://bunpro.jp https://bunpro.jp) with mixed results but I know some people who swear by it. As for knowing if your understanding of a sentence is correct, if I have doubts at my level I assume that I am likely incorrect. I typically google the part of the sentence that I am unsure about and either look at images or posts that use it in different contexts. Reverso context is also useful for this (https://context.reverso.net/translation/ https://context.reverso.net/translation/)

drshapeless 4y ago

Does knowing Chinese helps when learning Japanese? My Chinese is already quite good, and I am looking for another Asian language to learn.

elldoubleyew 4y ago
Only with Kanji. Many share the same meaning, and onyomi reading often sounds a little bit like modern mandarin, but the kunyomi readings are exclusively Japanese and you'll have to memorize those separately (Wanikani was helpful for me in this). For grammar you are out of luck. Japanese is a much more grammar heavy language than Chinese, typically much more complex.
crumpled 4y ago
Knowing Chinese Kanji gives a lot of insight into Japanese Kanji, which is borrowed from Chinese. Some of the meanings are exactly the same
Freak_NL 4y ago
For written Japanese, a lot (for the kanji). For spoken Japanese, it helps with the words that were borrowed from Chinese — and this is a lot, perhaps 50%. But pronunciation is, obviously, recognizable, but differing. For such words (those that consist of characters that are pronounced using the so called on-yomi reading), you're likely to pick on the sound conversion from Chinese to Japanese and vice versa, and at that point make educated guesses to the meaning of those words. That leaves pure Japanese readings of words of course (which includes almost all verbs excluding the nouns that are verbified by suffixing with an inflection of suru), but it helps in the basis.

toto444 4y ago

If you like material that teaches Japanese in Japanese you might like this website : https://drdru.github.io/stories/intro.html https://drdru.github.io/stories/intro.html . It uses emoji to introduce new words, uses them over and over in simple short stories to reinforce them and let you guess the grammar from the context. (Disclaimer : it's mine :-) )

elldoubleyew 4y ago
I looked through the first 4 pages and its cute! I think this could certainly be helpful to someone getting their feet wet with really studying the language. One of the reasons I tend to hold MNN as gospel is the way that it doesn't treat you like a child. The conversations are very realistic to what you would hear in modern spoken Japanese, with Keigo and all of the clunkiness that comes with it from lesson 1. I noticed your disclaimer: "Despite being in the form of stories the Japanese used is beginner Japanese and may not reflect the way native speakers would express themselves. " If its not used by native speakers, why learn it this way? Maybe they could understand you if you spoke like this, but you would be unlikely to understand them without the need to speak to you as if you were 4 years old.
- toto444 4y ago
  You forgot the second part of this disclaimer is : "As the vocabulary and grammar expands it becomes closer to native speech.". > If its not used by native speakers, why learn it this way? Starting with small simplified building block and then refining them is pretty much what every textbook of every discipline out there does isn't it? (Not saying MNN does not do what you claim. I know it is really good but have never used it )

elric 4y ago

Is it still in print? The usual book stores all seem to be out.

timr 4y ago
Yes. You can get it on amazon, or at Kinokuniya, if you have one near you. It's also ubiquitous in Japan. There are also PDFs of it floating around the internet...

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

This is the same reason a lot of alternative JP learning resources recommend against traditional resources (sometimes even native textbooks, tangibly related) and favor sheer immersion instead. It's the same way many non-English speakers learned English as kids before their schools even start teaching them English. Formal education can still fill in the gaps where necessary or cover areas not usually covered in daily life, but it tends to work better as a supplement rather than the bulk of learning. I too am against it in general, and given the sheer volume of vocabulary and little quirks required to understand Japanese, you'd probably do yourself a massive disservice waiting to dive in any longer than necessary.

ziddoap 4y ago

>I started studying Japanese [...] assumes that you can read hiragana/katakana Can you explain how this works? This sounds like you were familiar with Japanese, not "started studying". >When you study Japanese in Japanese I've heard this before (with other languages, as well) but just can't wrap my head around it. The only example I can think of is full immersion (e.g. moving to Japan or wherever you're learning the language) and being surrounded by it 24/7, where context clues sort of boot-strap you into learning more. But how does this work without full immersion?

dymk 4y ago
One can learn the kana in a few weeks to a month, depending on how diligently one studies. It's akin to learning a new alphabet (although with quite a few more characters), but it's almost fully phonetic. Know the sounds the mora make, and you can (basically) pronounce the word, and certainly be able to look up the meaning in a dictionary. It's the first step to learning the written language without actually knowing what anything means, and lets you bootstrap Kanji learning as well. Learning Japanese through immersion doesn't necessarily mean getting thrown in the deep end watching TV, reading newspapers, etc. A just-starting beginner would understand none of that. This other key to language acquisition is comprehensible input, meaning you're just barely pushing the boundaries of what you're reading / hearing. Adult learners have decades of context to lean on from their native language, and so a good language learning resource will leverage that knowledge as well. みんなの日本語 starts with the very basics and builds from there. Same with Pimsleur (for the spoken language) which contains minimal English.
- ziddoap 4y ago
  I guess I'm just getting hung up on "started learning", which comes a few weeks or month after already learning all of the characters. It sounds like the OP is suggesting to learn hiragana/katakana first, then continue with their recommended book. Which makes total sense! And the OP probably left it out because that's the sensible thing to do. But as someone who only speaks one language, I was a bit confused on where I would actually start.

timr 4y ago

Also learned from MNN. It's worth pointing out that there are companion books that explain the grammar points in English (also many other languages - different books for different languages). Here's a link to eBay for the companion book for the first volume in English (couldn't find it on amazon, for whatever reason): https://www.ebay.com/itm/ha0793-Minna-no-Nihongo-1-English-Translation-Grammar-Notes-Minnano-Nihongo/161372870321 https://www.ebay.com/itm/ha0793-Minna-no-Nihongo-1-English-T... The grammar note books are invaluable...MNN can be a little challenging if you don't think like a Japanese person, or have a native teacher to help decipher the content. But they're also dangerous, because you can spend too much time in them at the expense of the actual textbook (I know this from direct experience). MNN is not my favorite (I recommend Genki for native English speakers), but I agree 100% with OP about learning Japanese from an English-language book. It is a waste of time. Learn hiragana and katakana (you can do this in a couple weeks) and dive into full grammatical immersion. There is no other way.

bovermyer 4y ago

How would you get a grasp of grammar rules, though? And things like counting-words (e.g., "-kai")? And how do you know if your understanding of a given sentence is correct?

elldoubleyew 4y ago
Grammar rules start by learning verb conjugations, these can be learned through tables, although there are some exceptions you will have to learn individually. This is an excellent free tool for practicing those (not mine, just something I've used): https://baileysnyder.com/jconj/ https://baileysnyder.com/jconj/ For structural grammar there are a lot of different routes to go about this, MNN teaches these pretty well in my opinion. I tried using bunpro (https://bunpro.jp https://bunpro.jp) with mixed results but I know some people who swear by it. As for knowing if your understanding of a sentence is correct, if I have doubts at my level I assume that I am likely incorrect. I typically google the part of the sentence that I am unsure about and either look at images or posts that use it in different contexts. Reverso context is also useful for this (https://context.reverso.net/translation/ https://context.reverso.net/translation/)