4 ms·

> It doesn't cost anything > make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, p

by est 4y ago

> It doesn't cost anything > make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. > opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan Time period matters

refurb 4y ago
> It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. I don't think it takes anything beyond "water won't flow towards the drains unless it's correctly sloped". You don't need higher pay, the same old tools work just fine, or inspections. When they shape the underlayment, they just need to slope it. It's the same amount of work (I've done it), all it takes is an attitude of "when I make this, I should make sure it performs it's function". I don't disagree some of it can be "screw this job, who cares", which certainly can be a factor for some workers, but my colleague worked with a guy who had his own cabinet business constantly cut corners to the points some cabinets door wouldn't open correctly (spacing the cabinet from the wall). He was amazed when my buddy shared ideas on how to avoid it. The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard. It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business!
- chii 4y ago
  > It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business! cost of knowledge acquisition is also a cost. Doing something in a better isn't free. Of course, for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. But if every little detail takes care and effort, the job becomes harder and take longer, and require someone with more knowledge and skill to perform. it's a spectrum - and where one would land on that spectrum is the level of quality (vs price).
  - est 4y ago
    > for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. I've actually met such a guy 20+ years ago, who didn't know slopes were a thing. He is from rural areas with extreme poverty, never had a shower room in his life really, came to cities for labor work regardless. I explained the idea of slopes to him, so he gladly spent the next few hours removed the tiles and made improvements. The new tiles are cut & adjusted like really ugly, but better than no slopes. I guess it's his first slope.
- est 4y ago
  > The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard That's exactly the point I am trying to make. Some of the sloppiness are lazy, some malice, some are pure dumbness. You'd be surprised to see how chaotic & booming the construction market is in China. Everyone is making money in one-off fashion like no tomorrow, and yet somehow even the most stupid contractor survived while keep making rookie mistakes after all those years. There are quality builders in China, but construction industry as a whole had zero to none barrier of entry, thus it had the highest concentration of dumbness in 1.4b ppl. China was undergoing the most dramatic urbanization period of human history, the demand is huge. So yeah it's an economical issue.
- watwut 4y ago
  That worker attitude is created by more inspections and company willingness to rework faulty shower. However, when the company does not check quality and pushes workers to produce faster and faster, they will not care. Otherwise said, quality is more expensive, because to achieve it you can not just say "done" whenever individual finishes shower and praise him for speed. You need supervisor to check against list of known issues regularly and you need to praise people for quality - which means lower speed.
  - refurb 4y ago
    I've seen workers in the US installing cabinets do work that homeowner would never see, that takes longer and costs more. They could easily skip it, nobody would be the wiser and their reputation wouldn't suffer. The builder does it because "that's how it's done right and I don't do it half-assed". That's the attitude that's missing - pride of workmanship.
    - est 4y ago
      The problem is contractors with zero pride can still get jobs. China's fast urbanization creates such demand imbalance. The sad part is the boss won't promote the labor worker for a better slope, they just need the worker to move fast to the next job.
      - refurb 4y ago
        I'm not sure the bosses even know about slope. It's turtles all the way down.
    - watwut 4y ago
      Building such culture requires checks and controls where you can see. It requires customers that complain after a while if things don't work. It requires management that does not reward pure speed. The "that's how it's done right and I don't do it half-assed" does not magically happen.
      - 4y ago

by est 4y ago

refurb 4y ago

> It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. I don't think it takes anything beyond "water won't flow towards the drains unless it's correctly sloped". You don't need higher pay, the same old tools work just fine, or inspections. When they shape the underlayment, they just need to slope it. It's the same amount of work (I've done it), all it takes is an attitude of "when I make this, I should make sure it performs it's function". I don't disagree some of it can be "screw this job, who cares", which certainly can be a factor for some workers, but my colleague worked with a guy who had his own cabinet business constantly cut corners to the points some cabinets door wouldn't open correctly (spacing the cabinet from the wall). He was amazed when my buddy shared ideas on how to avoid it. The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard. It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business!

chii 4y ago
> It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business! cost of knowledge acquisition is also a cost. Doing something in a better isn't free. Of course, for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. But if every little detail takes care and effort, the job becomes harder and take longer, and require someone with more knowledge and skill to perform. it's a spectrum - and where one would land on that spectrum is the level of quality (vs price).
- est 4y ago
  > for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. I've actually met such a guy 20+ years ago, who didn't know slopes were a thing. He is from rural areas with extreme poverty, never had a shower room in his life really, came to cities for labor work regardless. I explained the idea of slopes to him, so he gladly spent the next few hours removed the tiles and made improvements. The new tiles are cut & adjusted like really ugly, but better than no slopes. I guess it's his first slope.
est 4y ago
> The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard That's exactly the point I am trying to make. Some of the sloppiness are lazy, some malice, some are pure dumbness. You'd be surprised to see how chaotic & booming the construction market is in China. Everyone is making money in one-off fashion like no tomorrow, and yet somehow even the most stupid contractor survived while keep making rookie mistakes after all those years. There are quality builders in China, but construction industry as a whole had zero to none barrier of entry, thus it had the highest concentration of dumbness in 1.4b ppl. China was undergoing the most dramatic urbanization period of human history, the demand is huge. So yeah it's an economical issue.
watwut 4y ago
That worker attitude is created by more inspections and company willingness to rework faulty shower. However, when the company does not check quality and pushes workers to produce faster and faster, they will not care. Otherwise said, quality is more expensive, because to achieve it you can not just say "done" whenever individual finishes shower and praise him for speed. You need supervisor to check against list of known issues regularly and you need to praise people for quality - which means lower speed.
- refurb 4y ago
  I've seen workers in the US installing cabinets do work that homeowner would never see, that takes longer and costs more. They could easily skip it, nobody would be the wiser and their reputation wouldn't suffer. The builder does it because "that's how it's done right and I don't do it half-assed". That's the attitude that's missing - pride of workmanship.
  - est 4y ago
    The problem is contractors with zero pride can still get jobs. China's fast urbanization creates such demand imbalance. The sad part is the boss won't promote the labor worker for a better slope, they just need the worker to move fast to the next job.
    - refurb 4y ago
      I'm not sure the bosses even know about slope. It's turtles all the way down.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Building such culture requires checks and controls where you can see. It requires customers that complain after a while if things don't work. It requires management that does not reward pure speed. The "that's how it's done right and I don't do it half-assed" does not magically happen.
    - 4y ago