3 ms·

It's an economical issue rather than a culture one. Chabuduo factories are making more profits because price wars and demands for chabuduo tier products. Once t

by est 4y ago

It's an economical issue rather than a culture one. Chabuduo factories are making more profits because price wars and demands for chabuduo tier products. Once the Chabuduo demands dries out, those factories will be forced to make higher quality parts. One example is how Xiaomi nearly wiped clean "Shanzhai" phones in China.

pabs3 4y ago
A post on Shanzhai for those not familiar: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284
refurb 4y ago
I would disagree it's an economic issue. I've come across multiple examples of chabuduo resulting in lower quality at zero cost savings. A good example is the construction of a shower. It doesn't cost anything more to make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It's just the opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan. In those countries, many people wouldn't want their name associated with a shoddy product, it reflects poorly on them. In China, it doesn't matter, most likely because they get paid the same either way.
- est 4y ago
  > It doesn't cost anything > make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. > opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan Time period matters
  - refurb 4y ago
    > It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. I don't think it takes anything beyond "water won't flow towards the drains unless it's correctly sloped". You don't need higher pay, the same old tools work just fine, or inspections. When they shape the underlayment, they just need to slope it. It's the same amount of work (I've done it), all it takes is an attitude of "when I make this, I should make sure it performs it's function". I don't disagree some of it can be "screw this job, who cares", which certainly can be a factor for some workers, but my colleague worked with a guy who had his own cabinet business constantly cut corners to the points some cabinets door wouldn't open correctly (spacing the cabinet from the wall). He was amazed when my buddy shared ideas on how to avoid it. The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard. It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business!
    - chii 4y ago
      > It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business! cost of knowledge acquisition is also a cost. Doing something in a better isn't free. Of course, for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. But if every little detail takes care and effort, the job becomes harder and take longer, and require someone with more knowledge and skill to perform. it's a spectrum - and where one would land on that spectrum is the level of quality (vs price).
      - est 4y ago
        > for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. I've actually met such a guy 20+ years ago, who didn't know slopes were a thing. He is from rural areas with extreme poverty, never had a shower room in his life really, came to cities for labor work regardless. I explained the idea of slopes to him, so he gladly spent the next few hours removed the tiles and made improvements. The new tiles are cut & adjusted like really ugly, but better than no slopes. I guess it's his first slope.
    - est 4y ago
      > The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard That's exactly the point I am trying to make. Some of the sloppiness are lazy, some malice, some are pure dumbness. You'd be surprised to see how chaotic & booming the construction market is in China. Everyone is making money in one-off fashion like no tomorrow, and yet somehow even the most stupid contractor survived while keep making rookie mistakes after all those years. There are quality builders in China, but construction industry as a whole had zero to none barrier of entry, thus it had the highest concentration of dumbness in 1.4b ppl. China was undergoing the most dramatic urbanization period of human history, the demand is huge. So yeah it's an economical issue.
    - watwut 4y ago
      That worker attitude is created by more inspections and company willingness to rework faulty shower. However, when the company does not check quality and pushes workers to produce faster and faster, they will not care. Otherwise said, quality is more expensive, because to achieve it you can not just say "done" whenever individual finishes shower and praise him for speed. You need supervisor to check against list of known issues regularly and you need to praise people for quality - which means lower speed.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>It's just the opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan. In those countries, many people wouldn't want their name associated with a shoddy product, it reflects poorly on them. I know this is just a personal anecdote, but I had(recently) a Mercedes-AMG which was built first in Koln, then transfered over to Affalterbach for hand assembly and inspection, it was as German as any car could ever be, and it was the worst built car I have ever had. And I've had a 1995 Fiat Cinquecento in the past. Creaking plastics, gaps in the interior, missing pieces of insulation that the dealer would swear "should have been there", panoramic roof that had to be taken out, re-lubricated and reinstalled because it was creaking so bad......"German engineering" at its finest, really. In contrast, I now have a Volvo XC60 which was built in China, and it's the best car I have ever owned - nearly 3 years of ownership, not a single issue, no squeaks, no rattles, interior and panels fit perfectly...... Maybe I was just very unlucky with the Mercedes, and very lucky with the Volvo - but I don't trust that "German people take pride in their work".
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > In contrast, I now have a Volvo XC60 which was built in China, and it's the best car I have ever owned - nearly 3 years of ownership, not a single issue, no squeaks, no rattles, interior and panels fit perfectly...... I've got a 2011 V60 (s/wagon, not CUV). It's a bit of an odd duck and I have mixed feelings. Repairs are exceptionally expensive[1] (I do all my own repairs, so only talking about parts, not labour) but things hardly ever break. It might be that, the V60 being a luxury car at time of release in 2011, more care was taken with sourcing, assembly and testing. [1] Compared to other cars that I have owned.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I've come across multiple examples of chabuduo resulting in lower quality at zero cost savings. A good example is the construction of a shower. It doesn't cost anything more to make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It actually does cost more, because it takes slightly more time. Making the floor level means you can simply use a 2m long aluminium square tube[1] or similar makeshift tool when floating/finishing the bare floor (before tiles are put on) and simply sweep it across, and depending on the resin/concrete you are using, it might even self-level[2]. To make level-ish floors there's plenty of tools and plenty of quick methods. To make a floor with a particular lowest-point takes more work because now you have a large curve to create in the floor and no simple tool that you can sweep across in a few attempts. [1] I use the tube because it's light and easy to manhandle over the entire floor. [2] When I needed a level floor in a room (pulled out the carpeting and the floor was too uneven for laminated wood), it took only 15m to pour the self-leveling resin in, sweep it over, and leave it overnight. When I built a shower floor, it took me about five hours from start to finish with a concrete mix to get an acceptable curve in the floor. Of course, it was the only time that I attempt to put a floor in a shower, so I may have spent more time getting it right than was necessary.
  - refurb 4y ago
    You’re overthinking it. The drain is at the right level. The wall is at a higher level. A piece of wood to roughly make sure it’s an straight line would get you 90% of the way there. They don’t even do that.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > You’re overthinking it. I probably was; it was the first time I was doing that and I didn't want to have to redo it.
- em500 4y ago
  It's an economic issue associated with stage of development. Remember the joke from Back to the Future. Doc Brown (1955): "No wonder this circuit failed, it says made in Japan."

by est 4y ago

pabs3 4y ago

A post on Shanzhai for those not familiar: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284

refurb 4y ago

I would disagree it's an economic issue. I've come across multiple examples of chabuduo resulting in lower quality at zero cost savings. A good example is the construction of a shower. It doesn't cost anything more to make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It's just the opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan. In those countries, many people wouldn't want their name associated with a shoddy product, it reflects poorly on them. In China, it doesn't matter, most likely because they get paid the same either way.

est 4y ago
> It doesn't cost anything > make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. > opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan Time period matters
- refurb 4y ago
  > It costs a (or several) higher paid worker, better tools, patience and more inspection time. Often these Chabuduo workers are young people with a "Dagong" mindset, little education and got scammed into construction business and quit very soon. I don't think it takes anything beyond "water won't flow towards the drains unless it's correctly sloped". You don't need higher pay, the same old tools work just fine, or inspections. When they shape the underlayment, they just need to slope it. It's the same amount of work (I've done it), all it takes is an attitude of "when I make this, I should make sure it performs it's function". I don't disagree some of it can be "screw this job, who cares", which certainly can be a factor for some workers, but my colleague worked with a guy who had his own cabinet business constantly cut corners to the points some cabinets door wouldn't open correctly (spacing the cabinet from the wall). He was amazed when my buddy shared ideas on how to avoid it. The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard. It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business!
  - chii 4y ago
    > It had never occurred him of doing this minor change. And this was his own business! cost of knowledge acquisition is also a cost. Doing something in a better isn't free. Of course, for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. But if every little detail takes care and effort, the job becomes harder and take longer, and require someone with more knowledge and skill to perform. it's a spectrum - and where one would land on that spectrum is the level of quality (vs price).
    - est 4y ago
      > for a small, minor thing like sloping the floor properly, it's a small mistake that won't really cost. I've actually met such a guy 20+ years ago, who didn't know slopes were a thing. He is from rural areas with extreme poverty, never had a shower room in his life really, came to cities for labor work regardless. I explained the idea of slopes to him, so he gladly spent the next few hours removed the tiles and made improvements. The new tiles are cut & adjusted like really ugly, but better than no slopes. I guess it's his first slope.
  - est 4y ago
    > The guy looked at him like he was some sort of wizard That's exactly the point I am trying to make. Some of the sloppiness are lazy, some malice, some are pure dumbness. You'd be surprised to see how chaotic & booming the construction market is in China. Everyone is making money in one-off fashion like no tomorrow, and yet somehow even the most stupid contractor survived while keep making rookie mistakes after all those years. There are quality builders in China, but construction industry as a whole had zero to none barrier of entry, thus it had the highest concentration of dumbness in 1.4b ppl. China was undergoing the most dramatic urbanization period of human history, the demand is huge. So yeah it's an economical issue.
  - watwut 4y ago
    That worker attitude is created by more inspections and company willingness to rework faulty shower. However, when the company does not check quality and pushes workers to produce faster and faster, they will not care. Otherwise said, quality is more expensive, because to achieve it you can not just say "done" whenever individual finishes shower and praise him for speed. You need supervisor to check against list of known issues regularly and you need to praise people for quality - which means lower speed.
gambiting 4y ago
>>It's just the opposite "pride of craftmanship" that you see in Germany or Japan. In those countries, many people wouldn't want their name associated with a shoddy product, it reflects poorly on them. I know this is just a personal anecdote, but I had(recently) a Mercedes-AMG which was built first in Koln, then transfered over to Affalterbach for hand assembly and inspection, it was as German as any car could ever be, and it was the worst built car I have ever had. And I've had a 1995 Fiat Cinquecento in the past. Creaking plastics, gaps in the interior, missing pieces of insulation that the dealer would swear "should have been there", panoramic roof that had to be taken out, re-lubricated and reinstalled because it was creaking so bad......"German engineering" at its finest, really. In contrast, I now have a Volvo XC60 which was built in China, and it's the best car I have ever owned - nearly 3 years of ownership, not a single issue, no squeaks, no rattles, interior and panels fit perfectly...... Maybe I was just very unlucky with the Mercedes, and very lucky with the Volvo - but I don't trust that "German people take pride in their work".
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > In contrast, I now have a Volvo XC60 which was built in China, and it's the best car I have ever owned - nearly 3 years of ownership, not a single issue, no squeaks, no rattles, interior and panels fit perfectly...... I've got a 2011 V60 (s/wagon, not CUV). It's a bit of an odd duck and I have mixed feelings. Repairs are exceptionally expensive[1] (I do all my own repairs, so only talking about parts, not labour) but things hardly ever break. It might be that, the V60 being a luxury car at time of release in 2011, more care was taken with sourcing, assembly and testing. [1] Compared to other cars that I have owned.
lelanthran 4y ago
> I've come across multiple examples of chabuduo resulting in lower quality at zero cost savings. A good example is the construction of a shower. It doesn't cost anything more to make sure the floor is sloped towards the drain. But it often isn't. It actually does cost more, because it takes slightly more time. Making the floor level means you can simply use a 2m long aluminium square tube[1] or similar makeshift tool when floating/finishing the bare floor (before tiles are put on) and simply sweep it across, and depending on the resin/concrete you are using, it might even self-level[2]. To make level-ish floors there's plenty of tools and plenty of quick methods. To make a floor with a particular lowest-point takes more work because now you have a large curve to create in the floor and no simple tool that you can sweep across in a few attempts. [1] I use the tube because it's light and easy to manhandle over the entire floor. [2] When I needed a level floor in a room (pulled out the carpeting and the floor was too uneven for laminated wood), it took only 15m to pour the self-leveling resin in, sweep it over, and leave it overnight. When I built a shower floor, it took me about five hours from start to finish with a concrete mix to get an acceptable curve in the floor. Of course, it was the only time that I attempt to put a floor in a shower, so I may have spent more time getting it right than was necessary.
- refurb 4y ago
  You’re overthinking it. The drain is at the right level. The wall is at a higher level. A piece of wood to roughly make sure it’s an straight line would get you 90% of the way there. They don’t even do that.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > You’re overthinking it. I probably was; it was the first time I was doing that and I didn't want to have to redo it.
em500 4y ago
It's an economic issue associated with stage of development. Remember the joke from Back to the Future. Doc Brown (1955): "No wonder this circuit failed, it says made in Japan."