8 ms·

If you ever try to get something built in China, you really need to know what you're doing, or the manufacturer will violate your specs all over the place in or

If you ever try to get something built in China, you really need to know what you're doing, or the manufacturer will violate your specs all over the place in order to profit an extra 1/10th of a cent per unit. But, big companies don't really have that excuse, because they should know what they're doing.

stacktrust 4y ago
Milwaukee (TTI) is vertically integrated, i.e. they own their factories in China.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > they own their factories in China This isn’t as protective as one would imagine. Unscrupulous floor managers will still swap materials, run the crap and sell the good stuff.
  - stacktrust 4y ago
    Wow. How would floor managers benefit from that kind of swap?
    - umeshunni 4y ago
      They sell the higher spec ones on the side to their buddies?
      - stacktrust 4y ago
        Wouldn't the lower spec ones fail QA checks on factory floor?
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        Not if the floor manager controls the factory floor QA checks...
        stacktrust 4y ago
        If factory owners really want integrity from software-executed QA checks, they can require HQ authorization of software and config updates on factory floor equipment that is equipped for local tamper detection of control planes.
        fn-mote 4y ago
        And as the other posters tell you, possibly failing QA checks is not stopping profiteers from attempting these kind of changes. Constantly. It's a numbers game. Expected profit based on how long until your swap is discovered.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      By pocketing the difference.
      - stacktrust 4y ago
        Ah, pocketing the delta on input costs. Hopefully the drop in output QA metrics would be detectable via software.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        You also need to make sure QA is actually on your side, and vigilant. As they say, heaven is high and the emperor is far away.
    - natpalmer1776 4y ago
      Same way it happens outside china in other industries. You know a supplier who sells material / service for $BUDGET minus X, in exchange for swapping the PO you get a portion of X from the supplier via back channel means, while company is now paying $BUDGET for lower quality material / service that costs supplier less.
    - karmicthreat 4y ago
      Because the factory manager is the one selling product out the back door.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  ... that's possible? Don't companies from outside china have to set up joint ventures with a chinese company?
  - arecurrence 4y ago
    Milwaukee is owned by Techtronic industries, a Chinese company
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep, suddenly they will change the type of plastic used, changed the ratios of plastics, use less copper (wires, pcbs), replace the brand name electronics with cheaper knockoffs and qa rejects from other factories, replace the type of glue, etc. Basically you need a QA team there to monitor every step of the production, or they'll try to screw you everywhere they can.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  This sounds like perfectly efficient capitalism. Is it really not this way in other countries?
  - jefftk 4y ago
    You negotiate for one grade of steel, initial runs are that grade, but over time some manufacturers will start substituting a cheaper grade and hope you don't notice ("quality fade"). In most countries employees would see that as unethical, and companies would risk whistleblowing and fraud suits if they went ahead anyway.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Yep, there's a great book "poorly made in china" [0], where they describe the immaculate production facilities, hygene standards, etc... and after a short time, stuff like this: > Bernie was disturbed by the finger-in-bottle exchange, when I told him about it. “I hope they are washing their hands, at least,” he said. Since the bathrooms had no soap, I told him that it was not likely. > I explained to Sister how this could be a problem. She told me that she understood and would address the situation. > “I will tell the workers not to put their fingers in the bottles when you are at the factory,” she said. .... > The hair gel that we produced at the factory was green. One day, I noticed that the worker who filled the gel bottles had a skin condition. His hands were covered with the slick formula, and beneath the green, shimmery layer, I could see that the skin on his hands was peeling. Small, raw patches of flesh were exposed, and you didn’t have to be a dermatologist to see that his skin was infected. > “We should probably do something about this one,” I said to Sister, trying to sound calm, while in my head alarm bells were ringing. > Sister did not see the point. “Why?” she asked. > “It might be a health issue?” > “But the worker has done nothing wrong. It’s just an allergic reaction.” > Trying to press the matter, I suggested that the worker might contaminate the product. > Sister twisted around the argument. “How can he harm the product when it was the product that caused him the harm?” etc. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296
s1artibartfast 4y ago
This is definitely the case in med tech, devices and Pharma. Many manufacturers avoid China because you can set a spec but you can't trust the outgoing QA testing. You can do incoming QA testing, but then you are double testing and losing a lot of efficiencies when those things would be best done at the supplier
- londons_explore 4y ago
  You do spot incoming QA testing. And if you find any issues, you test the whole shipment. And then you compare the results to the outgoing QA test results. And if any results can't be explained by failures relating to shipping, then you fire your supplier. You let them know ahead of time that this is the procedure you'll apply, and then they'll do proper QA testing.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    In these industries it might take 5 years to switch suppliers. There are also specs that can't be tested at the finished good level, even destructively.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - eru 4y ago
      Yes, that makes it harder. You should probably run with multiple suppliers in the first place, so it's easier to switch between them? Of course, that extra overhead probably will eat into your cost savings.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        People do that too, but even with all these mitigations in place, the risk just isn't worth it. No major medical company wants to risk recalling defective product by using a disreputable Chinese manufacturer. Unknowingly selling counterfeit product is a pretty bad look to the FDA and consumers. This is the main reason why many procurement departments have a no China policy.

stacktrust 4y ago

Milwaukee (TTI) is vertically integrated, i.e. they own their factories in China.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> they own their factories in China This isn’t as protective as one would imagine. Unscrupulous floor managers will still swap materials, run the crap and sell the good stuff.
- stacktrust 4y ago
  Wow. How would floor managers benefit from that kind of swap?
  - umeshunni 4y ago
    They sell the higher spec ones on the side to their buddies?
    - stacktrust 4y ago
      Wouldn't the lower spec ones fail QA checks on factory floor?
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        Not if the floor manager controls the factory floor QA checks...
        stacktrust 4y ago
        If factory owners really want integrity from software-executed QA checks, they can require HQ authorization of software and config updates on factory floor equipment that is equipped for local tamper detection of control planes.
      - fn-mote 4y ago
        And as the other posters tell you, possibly failing QA checks is not stopping profiteers from attempting these kind of changes. Constantly. It's a numbers game. Expected profit based on how long until your swap is discovered.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    By pocketing the difference.
    - stacktrust 4y ago
      Ah, pocketing the delta on input costs. Hopefully the drop in output QA metrics would be detectable via software.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        You also need to make sure QA is actually on your side, and vigilant. As they say, heaven is high and the emperor is far away.
  - natpalmer1776 4y ago
    Same way it happens outside china in other industries. You know a supplier who sells material / service for $BUDGET minus X, in exchange for swapping the PO you get a portion of X from the supplier via back channel means, while company is now paying $BUDGET for lower quality material / service that costs supplier less.
  - karmicthreat 4y ago
    Because the factory manager is the one selling product out the back door.
solarkraft 4y ago
... that's possible? Don't companies from outside china have to set up joint ventures with a chinese company?
- arecurrence 4y ago
  Milwaukee is owned by Techtronic industries, a Chinese company

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Yep, suddenly they will change the type of plastic used, changed the ratios of plastics, use less copper (wires, pcbs), replace the brand name electronics with cheaper knockoffs and qa rejects from other factories, replace the type of glue, etc. Basically you need a QA team there to monitor every step of the production, or they'll try to screw you everywhere they can.

solarkraft 4y ago
This sounds like perfectly efficient capitalism. Is it really not this way in other countries?
- jefftk 4y ago
  You negotiate for one grade of steel, initial runs are that grade, but over time some manufacturers will start substituting a cheaper grade and hope you don't notice ("quality fade"). In most countries employees would see that as unethical, and companies would risk whistleblowing and fraud suits if they went ahead anyway.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Yep, there's a great book "poorly made in china" [0], where they describe the immaculate production facilities, hygene standards, etc... and after a short time, stuff like this: > Bernie was disturbed by the finger-in-bottle exchange, when I told him about it. “I hope they are washing their hands, at least,” he said. Since the bathrooms had no soap, I told him that it was not likely. > I explained to Sister how this could be a problem. She told me that she understood and would address the situation. > “I will tell the workers not to put their fingers in the bottles when you are at the factory,” she said. .... > The hair gel that we produced at the factory was green. One day, I noticed that the worker who filled the gel bottles had a skin condition. His hands were covered with the slick formula, and beneath the green, shimmery layer, I could see that the skin on his hands was peeling. Small, raw patches of flesh were exposed, and you didn’t have to be a dermatologist to see that his skin was infected. > “We should probably do something about this one,” I said to Sister, trying to sound calm, while in my head alarm bells were ringing. > Sister did not see the point. “Why?” she asked. > “It might be a health issue?” > “But the worker has done nothing wrong. It’s just an allergic reaction.” > Trying to press the matter, I suggested that the worker might contaminate the product. > Sister twisted around the argument. “How can he harm the product when it was the product that caused him the harm?” etc. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5116296

s1artibartfast 4y ago

This is definitely the case in med tech, devices and Pharma. Many manufacturers avoid China because you can set a spec but you can't trust the outgoing QA testing. You can do incoming QA testing, but then you are double testing and losing a lot of efficiencies when those things would be best done at the supplier

londons_explore 4y ago
You do spot incoming QA testing. And if you find any issues, you test the whole shipment. And then you compare the results to the outgoing QA test results. And if any results can't be explained by failures relating to shipping, then you fire your supplier. You let them know ahead of time that this is the procedure you'll apply, and then they'll do proper QA testing.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  In these industries it might take 5 years to switch suppliers. There are also specs that can't be tested at the finished good level, even destructively.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - eru 4y ago
    Yes, that makes it harder. You should probably run with multiple suppliers in the first place, so it's easier to switch between them? Of course, that extra overhead probably will eat into your cost savings.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      People do that too, but even with all these mitigations in place, the risk just isn't worth it. No major medical company wants to risk recalling defective product by using a disreputable Chinese manufacturer. Unknowingly selling counterfeit product is a pretty bad look to the FDA and consumers. This is the main reason why many procurement departments have a no China policy.