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If I understand the core underlying issue (as opposed to downstream result) is a currency that lost majority of its value through volatility. Who can look me i

If I understand the core underlying issue (as opposed to downstream result) is a currency that lost majority of its value through volatility. Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? That bitcoin "protects exactly" against mismanaged economy and corrupt government? It's become my mantra but I swear people on HN don't understand how crappy life can get, how oppressive governments can get, how many rights and things we take for granted can be taken away by thugs, and believe a super high tech complicated software stack can magically fix it. sorry if that sounds harsh, but you know what, it is also harsh to listen to hungry angry oppressed people and constantly claim "bitcoin can fix that for ya".

gonehome 4y ago
Other comments laid it out already, but you don’t understand the underlying issue. Volatility is unrelated to the risks I’m talking about. Your criticism doesn’t sound harsh, just wrong.
stale2002 4y ago
> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility I can do so. As volatile as crypto is, it is still much less volatile than a national currency in a collapsing country. People in the west and in 1st world countries are much too privileged to see this though.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  >>People in the US or Europe are much too privileged to see this though. I have no idea why you'd think so, thank you very much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia#Collapse_of_the_Yugoslav_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Feder... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Federal_...
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > no idea why you'd think so You have no idea why Id think the average person living in the west right now is dealing with significantly less problems than people living in a country that is experiencing full scale economic collapse? Really? I think it is pretty self evident that most people living in the west are dealing with much smaller problems than people living in places like Lebanon right now. If someone is unable to see this pretty basic fact, that their lives are likely much better than the people experiencing full scale economic collapse, then I guess that privilege is stronger than I expected.
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      The West is just doing it in slower motion due to having more knobs to pull to let steam out of the reactor — so to speak.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      I have replied to your original comment, as it was written then. You have now edited it, which fair enough, but therefore I think your "really? You can't imagine why I'd say this [...]" Is unwarranted and I cannot meaningfully address it anymore.
      - stale2002 4y ago
        Great, so then you agree with me completely that people living in the west are dealing with significantly less problems than people who are living in an collapsing economy, which is my point.
  - jokethrowaway 4y ago
    When people say Europe they don't understand it means so many countries, they just think of France, Italy and Germany.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy surely it would just lead to massive queues/shortages? If the economy isn't producing enough it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use, it's gonna be bad for almost everyone. It may make some difference in terms of foreign debt.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy I am not sure why you are speaking in hypotheticals. The economy of lebanon did collapse. And if you were holding bitcoin, you'd be much better off than holding that local currency. Economies collapse all the time, around the world. And because the coin is a global market, it is insolated from local collapse. > it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use But it did matter! Just look at the current situation, in Lebanon right now. If you were holding the local currency, you'd be screwed. If you were holding a global currency, you'd be much better off.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Assuming you could buy basics from an international market and somehow get them delivered to you at a reasonable price using said global currency, true. But how realistic is that?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - ip26 4y ago
      Would you be? If the economy doesn't produce enough food, what food there is just goes up in price. You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money, a tall order for a country with a weak economy.
      - stale2002 4y ago
        > Would you be? Think about the existing right now situation. Imagine if someone, in lebanon, had 50k USD equivalent, in a lebanon bank. Now, imagine the same person, who had 50k equivalent value, in not the lebanon bank. Who's better off? Clearly the person who had the global currency. > You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money Oh, you mean like the money that now wasn't confiscated or inflated away to being worthless? That money? Yes, that is what you would use the money for. The money that now wasn't taken away, or was not made worthless, is what you would use to buy things. Situation A: you have no money. Or you have 10 thousand percent inflated money. Situation B: you do have money, in a global currency. And yes that money can be used to buys things from the international market. Situation B is better. Much better.
- headsoup 4y ago
  Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better. You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.'
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- headsoup 4y ago
  Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better. You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.' It's interesting, I seem to always see these comments on behalf of people who might find crypto useful to avoid local currency issues, not people actually doing it.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges Bitcoin believers always say - "not your keys, not your coins". I am sure you have heard it a million times by now since you also seem to be keeping tabs on which crypto exchanges are collapsing.
    - headsoup 4y ago
      I think Crypto sceptics are the ones more likely saying "not your keys, not your coins..."
      - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
        Either or: the tech flourishes with this use.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
Not because of volatility It's because of fractional reserve and banks and governments colluding to print money out of thin air or just spend most of it. Volatility is a different problem: I agree btc is not the solution, we need a political solution for that. And maybe a currency backed by real things (not necessarily precious metals, common goods would represent the economy better). Either the bank has it and I can get it anytime or it's fraud.
- imtringued 4y ago
  >It's because of fractional reserve and banks and governments colluding to print money out of thin air or just spend most of it. Have you ever considered that the way money is currently structured requires ever more creative solutions that sound pointless and counterproductive yet are entirely necessary to keep it alive?
orangepurple 4y ago
After the Roman empire fell common things were still priced in equivalents of the old currency everywhere even though the currency was dead. When converting BTC to anything, the common denominator it will be compared to for purposes of trade is another equivalent everyone intuitively knows the value for such as the US dollar.
max59676 4y ago
>Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? Can you really say with a strait face that you think BTC's volatility is worse than literally losing your bank account with all it's content?! People who live in places like the US forget that the average fiat currency has a lifespan of roughly half your life expectancy (37yr irrc).
- PebblesRox 4y ago
  Whereas Bitcoin has been around for hundreds of years and is still going strong.
  - renonce 4y ago
    Bitcoin was invented in 2009 so it's been around for exactly 13 years. And its value is extremely volatile.
    - sph 4y ago
      Imagine if money didn't exist at all and we invented it today. It would be such an enormous technological game changer its value would change very very rapidly as we're going from zero to a huge "market cap" very quickly. Imagine a pool. If you fill it with a lot of water rapidly, there's going to be a lot of turbulence. Doesn't mean that in the long run, as it gets filled, it won't settle down. The volatility argument doesn't consider the fact that it's gone from zero to something big players and states invest in in 13 years. And that frankly it was not good enough to be digital cash but it's getting there. That's bound to cause a lot of turbulence.
      - andsoitis 4y ago
        So are you suggesting?: Hang on tight Buy more coin It will stabilize some day
        sph 4y ago
Waterluvian 4y ago
I think it’s people who, in good faith, still deeply believe in the theory behind Bitcoin but ignore or dismiss the decade of experiments showing it just isn’t working.
- gonehome 4y ago
  The fact that you could hold some % of your wealth in BTC (in self custody) and have insulated yourself from the failure of the Lebanese currency is evidence that it is working.
johndevor 4y ago
Yes it's volatile that's why you don't put all your money into it. Diversification!
Spooky23 4y ago
Especially when bitcoin has lost almost 2/3 of its value in the last year.
- andirk 4y ago
  And increased in value well well over 10x in last few of years but go on.
ramblerman 4y ago
> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? That bitcoin "protects exactly" against mismanaged economy and corrupt government? You are conflating volatility and corruption Bitcoin won't protect you against the former (and neither did the lebanese pound), but it does offer protection against the latter.
- hef19898 4y ago
  With bit coin, and other cryoto, being using as the go to way to oay ransom attacks I highly doubt bitcoin does anything other than making corruotion easier.
  - game-of-throws 4y ago
    And tech support scammers use Apple gift cards, so obviously Apple is just a giant scam too
    - hef19898 4y ago
      If gift cards were everything Apple did, yes thatbwould be true. Since obviously gift cards are not everything Apple does, it is clearly not true.
imtringued 4y ago
Bitcoin can't fix this because it would promote even more corruption, imagine if politicians sole goal in their political career was to get Bitcoin as soon as possible to live off their constantly growing savings? How do you get Bitcoin as fast as possible? Corruption is quick and dirty.
RestlessMind 4y ago
> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? In 5y, 1 USD went from 3.44 Turkish Lira to 17.94; Sri Lankan Rupee collapsed overnight from ~200 to ~360 per USD. Argentine Peso went from 17 to 134 per USD in 5 years. I can easily look you in the eye and say that for countries with shitty governance and poorly managed economies, Bitcoin is a far better bet than their local currencies. So far, a common alternative was USD but after it was demonstrated that even a nuclear armed country like Russia can lose its USD reserves overnight, I think a lot of countries would be looking for alternatives. Bitcoin and Gold are credibly neutral alternatives.
- igorkraw 4y ago
  You are simply saying one of two things:"deflationary thing would be nice to keep your savings in" and "the USD is a strong currency". What kept people from buying gold, bitcoin or commodities or other speculative assets in those countries? The fact that they are still a bad currency, because a currency is ultimately what your state demands taxes in and wants/subsidizes for transactions to be in. A currency without a state is just a ledger with faithful devotees, and as we see with tornado cash and the continued lack of a bitcoin or Crypto economy producing basic things like food, it faith doesn't seem to be enough (which is ironic because we call traditional currencies fiat now to differentiate from Crypto, when we should call them tax-based and fiat respectively)
  - ljosifov 4y ago
    +1 on this, you nailed the issues exactly! Bad fiat currency is simply a proxy for bad state, bad government, bad governance. USD is safe and sound as long as USA and USG are. Would reuse tax-based and fiat-crypto - you got that right too - except for fear of all mighty confusion. :-) Money, currency, banking are confusing enough for most people already.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      > USD is safe and sound as long as USA and USG are. I agree. People living in USA or Eurozone may not see the need for BTC since they have good stable governments with well-managed currencies[1]. People outside of those pockets, however, need some option to escape from their governments' corruption and tyranny. BTC is a neutral, and hence better, option. Because if your country falls out of favor of USG, your savings just became a collateral damage when USG imposes sanctions n all. [1] this sentence might come as a shock to some since news media constantly paints apocalyptic picture. But US and Eurozone is a really good area of the world to live in.
lowkey 4y ago
> If I understand the core underlying issue (as opposed to downstream result) is > a currency that lost majority of its value through volatility No, that is incorrect, the Lebanese pound did not lose it’s value through volatility. It lost it’s value through debasement, a fractional reserve and outright theft by the central bank of Lebanon. Here is an article that explains the process [1]. Successive governments used bank savings as a piggy bank beginning after the 1975-1990 civil war. Things accelerated in 2016 when the banks started paying unsustainable interest rates on savings to entice savers in a grand government-sponsored Ponzi scheme that ended in 2019 when banks could no longer pay back savers and froze accounts. Had the savings been held in Bitcoin, on-chain, no government or central bank could have stolen the savings. 1 BTC=1 BTC on-chain and there can be no debasement, no freezing of funds, and no ponzinomics. Despite Bitcoin’s short-term volatility, as a self-custody asset, it would have been the ideal store of value for Lebanese savers. Remember, the Lebanese pound has been debased by 10x, even if you can access those funds. Bitcoin truly does fix this. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-financial-meltdown-how-it-happened-2021-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-financial...

gonehome 4y ago

Other comments laid it out already, but you don’t understand the underlying issue. Volatility is unrelated to the risks I’m talking about. Your criticism doesn’t sound harsh, just wrong.

stale2002 4y ago

> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility I can do so. As volatile as crypto is, it is still much less volatile than a national currency in a collapsing country. People in the west and in 1st world countries are much too privileged to see this though.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
>>People in the US or Europe are much too privileged to see this though. I have no idea why you'd think so, thank you very much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia#Collapse_of_the_Yugoslav_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Feder... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Federal_...
- stale2002 4y ago
  > no idea why you'd think so You have no idea why Id think the average person living in the west right now is dealing with significantly less problems than people living in a country that is experiencing full scale economic collapse? Really? I think it is pretty self evident that most people living in the west are dealing with much smaller problems than people living in places like Lebanon right now. If someone is unable to see this pretty basic fact, that their lives are likely much better than the people experiencing full scale economic collapse, then I guess that privilege is stronger than I expected.
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    The West is just doing it in slower motion due to having more knobs to pull to let steam out of the reactor — so to speak.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    I have replied to your original comment, as it was written then. You have now edited it, which fair enough, but therefore I think your "really? You can't imagine why I'd say this [...]" Is unwarranted and I cannot meaningfully address it anymore.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      Great, so then you agree with me completely that people living in the west are dealing with significantly less problems than people who are living in an collapsing economy, which is my point.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  When people say Europe they don't understand it means so many countries, they just think of France, Italy and Germany.
wizofaus 4y ago
If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy surely it would just lead to massive queues/shortages? If the economy isn't producing enough it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use, it's gonna be bad for almost everyone. It may make some difference in terms of foreign debt.
- stale2002 4y ago
  > If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy I am not sure why you are speaking in hypotheticals. The economy of lebanon did collapse. And if you were holding bitcoin, you'd be much better off than holding that local currency. Economies collapse all the time, around the world. And because the coin is a global market, it is insolated from local collapse. > it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use But it did matter! Just look at the current situation, in Lebanon right now. If you were holding the local currency, you'd be screwed. If you were holding a global currency, you'd be much better off.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Assuming you could buy basics from an international market and somehow get them delivered to you at a reasonable price using said global currency, true. But how realistic is that?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - ip26 4y ago
    Would you be? If the economy doesn't produce enough food, what food there is just goes up in price. You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money, a tall order for a country with a weak economy.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > Would you be? Think about the existing right now situation. Imagine if someone, in lebanon, had 50k USD equivalent, in a lebanon bank. Now, imagine the same person, who had 50k equivalent value, in not the lebanon bank. Who's better off? Clearly the person who had the global currency. > You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money Oh, you mean like the money that now wasn't confiscated or inflated away to being worthless? That money? Yes, that is what you would use the money for. The money that now wasn't taken away, or was not made worthless, is what you would use to buy things. Situation A: you have no money. Or you have 10 thousand percent inflated money. Situation B: you do have money, in a global currency. And yes that money can be used to buys things from the international market. Situation B is better. Much better.
headsoup 4y ago
Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better. You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.'
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
headsoup 4y ago
Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better. You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.' It's interesting, I seem to always see these comments on behalf of people who might find crypto useful to avoid local currency issues, not people actually doing it.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges Bitcoin believers always say - "not your keys, not your coins". I am sure you have heard it a million times by now since you also seem to be keeping tabs on which crypto exchanges are collapsing.
  - headsoup 4y ago
    I think Crypto sceptics are the ones more likely saying "not your keys, not your coins..."
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      Either or: the tech flourishes with this use.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

Not because of volatility It's because of fractional reserve and banks and governments colluding to print money out of thin air or just spend most of it. Volatility is a different problem: I agree btc is not the solution, we need a political solution for that. And maybe a currency backed by real things (not necessarily precious metals, common goods would represent the economy better). Either the bank has it and I can get it anytime or it's fraud.

imtringued 4y ago
>It's because of fractional reserve and banks and governments colluding to print money out of thin air or just spend most of it. Have you ever considered that the way money is currently structured requires ever more creative solutions that sound pointless and counterproductive yet are entirely necessary to keep it alive?

orangepurple 4y ago

After the Roman empire fell common things were still priced in equivalents of the old currency everywhere even though the currency was dead. When converting BTC to anything, the common denominator it will be compared to for purposes of trade is another equivalent everyone intuitively knows the value for such as the US dollar.

max59676 4y ago

>Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? Can you really say with a strait face that you think BTC's volatility is worse than literally losing your bank account with all it's content?! People who live in places like the US forget that the average fiat currency has a lifespan of roughly half your life expectancy (37yr irrc).

PebblesRox 4y ago
Whereas Bitcoin has been around for hundreds of years and is still going strong.
- renonce 4y ago
  Bitcoin was invented in 2009 so it's been around for exactly 13 years. And its value is extremely volatile.
  - sph 4y ago
    Imagine if money didn't exist at all and we invented it today. It would be such an enormous technological game changer its value would change very very rapidly as we're going from zero to a huge "market cap" very quickly. Imagine a pool. If you fill it with a lot of water rapidly, there's going to be a lot of turbulence. Doesn't mean that in the long run, as it gets filled, it won't settle down. The volatility argument doesn't consider the fact that it's gone from zero to something big players and states invest in in 13 years. And that frankly it was not good enough to be digital cash but it's getting there. That's bound to cause a lot of turbulence.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      So are you suggesting?: Hang on tight Buy more coin It will stabilize some day
      - sph 4y ago

Waterluvian 4y ago

I think it’s people who, in good faith, still deeply believe in the theory behind Bitcoin but ignore or dismiss the decade of experiments showing it just isn’t working.

gonehome 4y ago
The fact that you could hold some % of your wealth in BTC (in self custody) and have insulated yourself from the failure of the Lebanese currency is evidence that it is working.

johndevor 4y ago

Yes it's volatile that's why you don't put all your money into it. Diversification!

Spooky23 4y ago

Especially when bitcoin has lost almost 2/3 of its value in the last year.

andirk 4y ago
And increased in value well well over 10x in last few of years but go on.

ramblerman 4y ago

> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? That bitcoin "protects exactly" against mismanaged economy and corrupt government? You are conflating volatility and corruption Bitcoin won't protect you against the former (and neither did the lebanese pound), but it does offer protection against the latter.

hef19898 4y ago
With bit coin, and other cryoto, being using as the go to way to oay ransom attacks I highly doubt bitcoin does anything other than making corruotion easier.
- game-of-throws 4y ago
  And tech support scammers use Apple gift cards, so obviously Apple is just a giant scam too
  - hef19898 4y ago
    If gift cards were everything Apple did, yes thatbwould be true. Since obviously gift cards are not everything Apple does, it is clearly not true.

imtringued 4y ago

Bitcoin can't fix this because it would promote even more corruption, imagine if politicians sole goal in their political career was to get Bitcoin as soon as possible to live off their constantly growing savings? How do you get Bitcoin as fast as possible? Corruption is quick and dirty.

RestlessMind 4y ago

> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility? In 5y, 1 USD went from 3.44 Turkish Lira to 17.94; Sri Lankan Rupee collapsed overnight from ~200 to ~360 per USD. Argentine Peso went from 17 to 134 per USD in 5 years. I can easily look you in the eye and say that for countries with shitty governance and poorly managed economies, Bitcoin is a far better bet than their local currencies. So far, a common alternative was USD but after it was demonstrated that even a nuclear armed country like Russia can lose its USD reserves overnight, I think a lot of countries would be looking for alternatives. Bitcoin and Gold are credibly neutral alternatives.

igorkraw 4y ago
You are simply saying one of two things:"deflationary thing would be nice to keep your savings in" and "the USD is a strong currency". What kept people from buying gold, bitcoin or commodities or other speculative assets in those countries? The fact that they are still a bad currency, because a currency is ultimately what your state demands taxes in and wants/subsidizes for transactions to be in. A currency without a state is just a ledger with faithful devotees, and as we see with tornado cash and the continued lack of a bitcoin or Crypto economy producing basic things like food, it faith doesn't seem to be enough (which is ironic because we call traditional currencies fiat now to differentiate from Crypto, when we should call them tax-based and fiat respectively)
- ljosifov 4y ago
  +1 on this, you nailed the issues exactly! Bad fiat currency is simply a proxy for bad state, bad government, bad governance. USD is safe and sound as long as USA and USG are. Would reuse tax-based and fiat-crypto - you got that right too - except for fear of all mighty confusion. :-) Money, currency, banking are confusing enough for most people already.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > USD is safe and sound as long as USA and USG are. I agree. People living in USA or Eurozone may not see the need for BTC since they have good stable governments with well-managed currencies[1]. People outside of those pockets, however, need some option to escape from their governments' corruption and tyranny. BTC is a neutral, and hence better, option. Because if your country falls out of favor of USG, your savings just became a collateral damage when USG imposes sanctions n all. [1] this sentence might come as a shock to some since news media constantly paints apocalyptic picture. But US and Eurozone is a really good area of the world to live in.

lowkey 4y ago

> If I understand the core underlying issue (as opposed to downstream result) is > a currency that lost majority of its value through volatility No, that is incorrect, the Lebanese pound did not lose it’s value through volatility. It lost it’s value through debasement, a fractional reserve and outright theft by the central bank of Lebanon. Here is an article that explains the process [1]. Successive governments used bank savings as a piggy bank beginning after the 1975-1990 civil war. Things accelerated in 2016 when the banks started paying unsustainable interest rates on savings to entice savers in a grand government-sponsored Ponzi scheme that ended in 2019 when banks could no longer pay back savers and froze accounts. Had the savings been held in Bitcoin, on-chain, no government or central bank could have stolen the savings. 1 BTC=1 BTC on-chain and there can be no debasement, no freezing of funds, and no ponzinomics. Despite Bitcoin’s short-term volatility, as a self-custody asset, it would have been the ideal store of value for Lebanese savers. Remember, the Lebanese pound has been debased by 10x, even if you can access those funds. Bitcoin truly does fix this. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-financial-meltdown-how-it-happened-2021-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-financial...