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American schools are so authoritarian, it's no wonder we are having such a problem preserving faith in our system of democracy in the United States. In public s

American schools are so authoritarian, it's no wonder we are having such a problem preserving faith in our system of democracy in the United States. In public schools, the word of unelected random adults is law, the rules are completely arbitrary, students have no right to privacy, no freedom of movement, sometimes not even control over how they dress or who they speak to. If an American public school was a country, it'd be Putin's Russia, and that only because of the pretense of meaningless "student government". Maybe if we wanted people to believe that the political system of this country made sense and was worth protecting, we would structure our education system to reflect its alleged values.

carom 4y ago
I almost got kicked out of school over a computer related issue. I refused to admit to it and they threatened to call the police. It honestly would have been preferable as the police have due process. Kids reading this, don't give them a confession, police or school admins, take the 5th. Don't Talk to the Police - https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE They want to take your money or put you in a cage.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  What was the issue? Just curious, if you're comfortable elaborating.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- iron2disulfide 4y ago
  I almost got kicked out because I "looked like" someone who had vandalized something or other the day before. They pulled me out of class, called me names, made me sit in their little sad office (thus missing more class) and tried to get me to write a written confession. I refused and they said they would "prosecute me to the full extent of the law". The next day I was exonerated with no explanation given. The two fully-grown adults who ran the security office were former police; judging by the 20+ department badges proudly displayed on their back wall, it looks like they'd been kicked out of every department. One wonders why!
  - teddyh 4y ago
    > One wonders why! I would actually wonder why, since from what I hear, what you describe is the standard tactic for police. It gets confessions, so they do it.
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Police exchange patches with people they work with.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  I had the same experience. They engage in a lot of puffery but school administrators know they aren't cops. Just say, "I need to talk to my parents" and don't say anything until you can talk with them.
qball 4y ago
>the word of unelected random adults is law, the rules are completely arbitrary, students have no right to privacy, no freedom of movement, sometimes not even control over how they dress or who they speak to. Or in other words, no different than Western society in general post-March 2020. >we would structure our education system to reflect its alleged values By our revealed preferences, the education system is a perfect reflection of our values.
- ivraatiems 4y ago
  > Or in other words, no different than Western society in general post-March 2020. Um... no? You need to provide more justification for that statement. (And a vague not towards COVID precautions isn't gonna do it.)
drekk 4y ago
What democracy exists in the US? You don't vote for your president. The preferences of the American public have a statistically insignificant effect on which legislative policies get passed. Popular suffrage has existed in the country for ~50 years since indigenous women got the vote. Do I even have to get into what total lack of privacy we enjoy in the "free world"? Come on. I'm tired of Americans comparing anything bad to their geopolitical enemies, especially when Putin was backed by the CIA and MI6 as a useful wedge against communism. You don't get to fuck up the entire world with aggressive state interventions and then act like you're some bastion of democracy. Ask a Chilean what they think about US democracy. Or really anyone for that matter.
- junofan 4y ago
  It’s a codified liberal democracy, as opposed to aristocracy, oligarchy, or autocracy. You may be confusing democracy with electoral democracy.
- kube-system 4y ago
  The US is a strong federation of states, not a unitary state. Our presidential election has only a very tiny relevance to the laws passed at the federal level. The government that most affects Americans day to day life are their state governments, many of which even allow for direct referendums.. of which the US has had thousands of. They are happening all the time, although they are usually local in interest and you usually won’t see them in our national news… unless they are particularly noteworthy: Maybe you might remember the recent news of the Kansas referendum on abortion? Can’t get any more democratic than that. (And by the way, several US states approved women’s suffrage before any country did.)
- cvoss 4y ago
  The American conception of democracy does not, by any means, refer to an ability to get the government to carry out the will of 51% of the populace. It is even specifically designed _not_ to do that, on purpose, for very good reasons. Here are some: - 51% of people can do wrong against the other 49%. - 51% of people can do wrong against themselves by making an uninformed decision. - Tomorrow the 51% become the 49% and vice versa. If unchecked power was given to whoever was currently 51%, it would spell whiplash and chaos. So you structure the whole thing into smaller deliberative bodies where people (who are periodically selected by 51% majorities) have better information and means to strike good compromises that are unattainable through raw public opinion. A fuller and more appropriate name for this is "a democratic republic", for which "democracy" is used as a shorthand. Some of these bodies have authority only over local areas, because you can make a more tailored decision when you have fewer things to deal with. Some of these local bodies, as another commenter noted, may conduct referendums to decide whether to make a law. Other bodies have authority over the whole land, but only over coarse-grained topics with only highly limited authority over the smaller local bodies. And at the highest level, there is one body where people's very local representatives have a vote and another body where people's region-wide representatives have a vote, and these bodies must agree in order to do most things. And you make one small body almost completely insulated from public opinion so that you can task it with protecting not just 49% from the whims of 51%, but protecting one individual person (yes, even a guilty criminal individual) against the rest of the government and against whatsoever the remaining 330 million people may think of this person. And yes, the vote for the president is not a raw popular vote. There is a level of indirection through another body that often does, but may not, yield the same result as a popular vote would. But it does not logically follow that Americans do not vote for their president. And you don't let the president make laws or rule on cases or send the country to war. The guiding principle is not to let one person or one group of people have too much power. A majority of Americans having consensus on a given issue is one such group whose power is intentionally limited. Could the whole thing be designed better than it is? Of course. Will people always screw it up no matter how well designed it is? Of course.

carom 4y ago

I almost got kicked out of school over a computer related issue. I refused to admit to it and they threatened to call the police. It honestly would have been preferable as the police have due process. Kids reading this, don't give them a confession, police or school admins, take the 5th. Don't Talk to the Police - https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE They want to take your money or put you in a cage.

ivraatiems 4y ago
What was the issue? Just curious, if you're comfortable elaborating.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
iron2disulfide 4y ago
I almost got kicked out because I "looked like" someone who had vandalized something or other the day before. They pulled me out of class, called me names, made me sit in their little sad office (thus missing more class) and tried to get me to write a written confession. I refused and they said they would "prosecute me to the full extent of the law". The next day I was exonerated with no explanation given. The two fully-grown adults who ran the security office were former police; judging by the 20+ department badges proudly displayed on their back wall, it looks like they'd been kicked out of every department. One wonders why!
- teddyh 4y ago
  > One wonders why! I would actually wonder why, since from what I hear, what you describe is the standard tactic for police. It gets confessions, so they do it.
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  Police exchange patches with people they work with.
willcipriano 4y ago
I had the same experience. They engage in a lot of puffery but school administrators know they aren't cops. Just say, "I need to talk to my parents" and don't say anything until you can talk with them.

qball 4y ago

>the word of unelected random adults is law, the rules are completely arbitrary, students have no right to privacy, no freedom of movement, sometimes not even control over how they dress or who they speak to. Or in other words, no different than Western society in general post-March 2020. >we would structure our education system to reflect its alleged values By our revealed preferences, the education system is a perfect reflection of our values.

ivraatiems 4y ago
> Or in other words, no different than Western society in general post-March 2020. Um... no? You need to provide more justification for that statement. (And a vague not towards COVID precautions isn't gonna do it.)

drekk 4y ago

What democracy exists in the US? You don't vote for your president. The preferences of the American public have a statistically insignificant effect on which legislative policies get passed. Popular suffrage has existed in the country for ~50 years since indigenous women got the vote. Do I even have to get into what total lack of privacy we enjoy in the "free world"? Come on. I'm tired of Americans comparing anything bad to their geopolitical enemies, especially when Putin was backed by the CIA and MI6 as a useful wedge against communism. You don't get to fuck up the entire world with aggressive state interventions and then act like you're some bastion of democracy. Ask a Chilean what they think about US democracy. Or really anyone for that matter.

junofan 4y ago
It’s a codified liberal democracy, as opposed to aristocracy, oligarchy, or autocracy. You may be confusing democracy with electoral democracy.
kube-system 4y ago
The US is a strong federation of states, not a unitary state. Our presidential election has only a very tiny relevance to the laws passed at the federal level. The government that most affects Americans day to day life are their state governments, many of which even allow for direct referendums.. of which the US has had thousands of. They are happening all the time, although they are usually local in interest and you usually won’t see them in our national news… unless they are particularly noteworthy: Maybe you might remember the recent news of the Kansas referendum on abortion? Can’t get any more democratic than that. (And by the way, several US states approved women’s suffrage before any country did.)
cvoss 4y ago
The American conception of democracy does not, by any means, refer to an ability to get the government to carry out the will of 51% of the populace. It is even specifically designed _not_ to do that, on purpose, for very good reasons. Here are some: - 51% of people can do wrong against the other 49%. - 51% of people can do wrong against themselves by making an uninformed decision. - Tomorrow the 51% become the 49% and vice versa. If unchecked power was given to whoever was currently 51%, it would spell whiplash and chaos. So you structure the whole thing into smaller deliberative bodies where people (who are periodically selected by 51% majorities) have better information and means to strike good compromises that are unattainable through raw public opinion. A fuller and more appropriate name for this is "a democratic republic", for which "democracy" is used as a shorthand. Some of these bodies have authority only over local areas, because you can make a more tailored decision when you have fewer things to deal with. Some of these local bodies, as another commenter noted, may conduct referendums to decide whether to make a law. Other bodies have authority over the whole land, but only over coarse-grained topics with only highly limited authority over the smaller local bodies. And at the highest level, there is one body where people's very local representatives have a vote and another body where people's region-wide representatives have a vote, and these bodies must agree in order to do most things. And you make one small body almost completely insulated from public opinion so that you can task it with protecting not just 49% from the whims of 51%, but protecting one individual person (yes, even a guilty criminal individual) against the rest of the government and against whatsoever the remaining 330 million people may think of this person. And yes, the vote for the president is not a raw popular vote. There is a level of indirection through another body that often does, but may not, yield the same result as a popular vote would. But it does not logically follow that Americans do not vote for their president. And you don't let the president make laws or rule on cases or send the country to war. The guiding principle is not to let one person or one group of people have too much power. A majority of Americans having consensus on a given issue is one such group whose power is intentionally limited. Could the whole thing be designed better than it is? Of course. Will people always screw it up no matter how well designed it is? Of course.