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Essentially like if every car was a ICE BEV hybrid, but the ICE in some power plant somewhere. The reving and idling or low power output of the ICE can be avoi
by rightbyte 4y ago
Essentially like if every car was a ICE BEV hybrid, but the ICE in some power plant somewhere.
The reving and idling or low power output of the ICE can be avoided if it is in some power plant somewhere.
- dragontamer 4y agoExcept building mild hybrids to avoid that problem might be more efficient than us building the mass production of lithium metals needed to make mass BEVs. If we are battery constrained today, we need to consider the most efficient use of our limited battery supply. Start/stop idle technology is much cheaper than 1000lbs of lithium batteries in each vehicle. ---------- It looks like the most efficient solution involves like 50lbs of batteries, rather than the gross 1000+lbs of batteries that BEV fans want to use per car.
- kiba 4y agoOr just use more trains and streetcars.
- landemva 4y agoLike Berlin and Munich and Prague and Düsseldorf and Warsaw and Amsterdam and The Hague. I lived there, without a car. I rented a few times when not on train or flight out of town. It's not for every city, though switch out trams for busses (Stockholm) and it could work in many places.
- panick21_ 4y agoYes, and you have to go even further and more general. The solution is actually urbanism. You can't just build trains and hope everything is gone be fine. Living in low or high density urban environments is far more efficient in pretty much every single way that we can measure. CO2, energy, land use, water use and so on, and not just by a little but by a huge margin. Transport can be electrified trains, trams, trolly buses, metros. This uses very few battery materials and essentially no new technology. All technology read to deploy in large numbers. This would also 'solve' the housing crisis as increasing density around transportation with mixed use is what leads to much cheaper living cost (housing and transportation need to be seen together). This talk by famous City Planner Peter Calthorpe is really good and goes into detail. He and his teams were charged with making a few projection plans for California and have really good numbers on all of these things (except the nuclear I mentioned): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUtdFbK4YG4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUtdFbK4YG4 He has other great talks about his work in China as well, this is a bit more academic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqldZhxl86I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqldZhxl86I
- adgjlsfhk1 4y agospecifically, hybrids that have at least 20 miles of range and are plug in. this is an amount that allows the majority of commutes to be fully electric.
- gridspy 4y agoThat, or drastically smaller vehicles such as e-bikes. Especially if you can take them on a larger vehicle (i.e a train) for part of long commutes.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoi wish we had proper cycle storage on all trains, it is extremely awkward to place them on transport. U also wish EU didnt have the silly 25 km/h limit on ebikes, I can pedal faster than that myself
- elcritch 4y agoElectric "unicycles" seem much easier to transport on trains than a bike. Though I wonder if they're considered "e-bikes" in the EU.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agothey are banned on the london transport network, supposedly due to danger of lithium battery fires. But self-built ebikes are not banned
- markvdb 4y agoFor taking a bicycle on the train, may I suggest the Brompton folding bicycle? Electric version also available. Also, did you know about the EU speed pedelec category L1e-B? It gets classified as a moped with maximum speed of 45 km/h and maximum 4 kW power.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agowe have these vehicles that are really wfficient at moving people, called busses. they should all be electric. and use overhead cables We had trolley busses like 100 years ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- panick21_ 4y agoNext your gone tell me you could replace the plastic wheels with once made out of steel. Crazy stuff. For this to work however you need to change far more then just the buses, you need to change the whole development pattern. I put some great links in my other comment.
- ianai 4y agoThese are downright lazy arguments at this point. The F150 ranges 4000-5800 lbs. The F350 ranges 5900-7700 or more. Similar numbers for the Silverado to the F150 I think. And where I live at any given time in any given parking lot a random rock/cinder block is more likely to hit them than any other model. The metals thing is a problem the markets will solve because the tech is largely solved.
- dragontamer 4y agoAnd the comparable GMC Hummer EV is 9,063 lbs, 2,923 pounds of which are batteries. > The metals thing is a problem the markets will solve because the tech is largely solved. The metals thing comes from Russia (nickle) and Congo (Cobalt), and Argentina/China (Lithium). The steel thing is *already* solved, with 88% of USA's steel being composed of recycled steel. You're hoping that some magic recycling process spins up over the next years to make Lithium sustainable, when it clearly isn't right now.
- panick21_ 4y agoNickel is mostly produced in Indonesia and some pacific islands. Most growth of new nickel is in Indonesia. Its refined in China. Lithium is mostly from Chile, Argentina and Australia but its mostly refined in China. > You're hoping that some magic recycling process spins up over the next years to make Lithium sustainable, when it clearly isn't right now. The amount of lithium even if 100% recycled isn't nearly enough to cover what is needed. We know how to recycle it, in fact we have far more recycling capability then we have material that we can recycle. Everybody invest in recycling but there is not much to actually recycle yet.
- dieselgate 4y agoSaw a new GMC Hummer a few hours ago for the first time, it was pretty strange to see because I thought it was a "new Bronco" at first or something (from the front). Then saw Hummer and GMC and was even more confused, but least knew what it was. Seeing your comment above made everything make sense; it's pretty dang "not my style" but whatever floats (or tows) your boat
- 4y ago
- Schroedingersat 4y agoThe most efficient solution for 80% of trips is 10lbs of batteries and a wire for 19% But sodium batteries are very nearly in mass production so while we're continuing to insist that petrol is 100% of the problem cars cause rather than 50% I guess that will do.
- master_crab 4y agoIt's alluded to in the article, but the energy extraction from combustion in power plants is also more efficient than the combustion engine in your car (almost double in the case of natural gas using combined cycle).
- upsidesinclude 4y agoDiesel electric systems are highly efficient ~85%. This is practical now in power plants, trains and shipping. The same could be achieved on a small scale if someone would simply make it
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoi am no mechanical engineer, but i believe there is a practical limit to size of a turbine. I dont think you can have combined cycle engine in a car
- elcritch 4y agoWasn't that sorta the premise of the Chevy Volt? Though I think most HEV still include a direct drive from the ICE. Personally I'd be interested in a pure electric drive HEV with a high efficiency diesel generator. Give me just enough battery for around town (100 miles maybe?) and just enough generator to extend my trip to ~300 miles. The generator doesn't need to be large (and expensive) enough to be capable to drive from directly at highway speeds, but just enough to extend the range when needed. Heck make the power units "modular" in 3 ft x 4 ft boxes and let me mix and match power sources. I'll start out with a 1 battery and 1 diesel setup, but could upgrade to 2 battery power packs later if I drive around town a lot. (^_^) I was joking but actually modular "power packs" would be cool.. You could replace one at a time vs a full $20k battery. Or take one out and plug it into your home. Maybe even rent a extra diesel pack for that coast-to-coast trip. Hmmm, wish I had the energy to start random companies. ;)
- cripblip 4y ago
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- landemva 4y agoMuch idling could be avoided if traffic engineers would design roundabouts instead of 4-way stops. Nevertheless, some newer cars shut off at intersections and are designed for that.
- stormbrew 4y agoA lot of walking would be eliminated too if you actually completely got rid of perpendicular intersections. You kind of need cars to stop sometimes to make it possible for people not in vehicles to get through safely.
- landemva 4y agoThere are still crosswalks which are distributed around the circle. Rarely there are pedestrian tunnels to get inside the doughnut, like in Paris to visit the arch.
- jacquesm 4y agoIn Arnhem they did the reverse: Vehicular traffic is raised to a higher level and pedestrians and bikes take the lower (inner) level. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Airborneplein,+6828+KP+Arnhem/@51.9783639,5.9145021,135m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c7a4359b78897b:0x162d1364268bd47f!8m2!3d51.9785407!4d5.9149527 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Airborneplein,+6828+KP+Arn... It's extremely efficient.
- ars 4y agoThat's really awesome, but you need a tremendous amount of land to make that possible.
- spockz 4y agoMost roundabouts of that type I know have replaced similarly sized all asphalt intersections. Now there is more green. When planned ahead there really isn’t that much extra real estate required if you are willing to have steeper grades for pedestrians only for example.
- 0x6A75616E 4y agoEven if current power generation for the grid isn't optimal (or clean), the move to EVs is the only way to allow for a cleaner system to work at all. That just isn't possible with ICE cars.
- coderenegade 4y agoI dunno about about that. There's no reason ICEVs can't run on methanol, the production of which can actually be carbon negative. This is likely where shipping will go, so no reason cars couldn't do it. You can even convert modern cars over fairly cheaply, so you don't need to produce an entirely new vehicle.
- kumarvvr 4y agoWhile partly true, it is important to note that improving efficiency of a single large energy source is easier to do than improving energy efficiency of a million cars. Also, with solar and wind in the fray, and increasing renewable energy share, having an all electric energy consumption economy is better logistically and environmentally.
- trunnell 4y agoEh, it's more like... exactly what the title says: EVs are just more efficient. 1 gallon of gas contains 33.7 kWh of energy. [1] The average ICE car goes 24 miles on 1 gallon of gas. That's 0.7 miles per kWh (24/33.7 ≅ 0.7). The Tesla Model 3 goes about 4.1 miles per kWh. That's 5.8x further per kWh, or 5.8x more efficient! Most of the difference is because ICE engines are inefficient. They waste energy. Just like the article says. :) The point made by the article about the source of electricity from power plants was simply that EVs are more efficient even when charged from coal fired power plants! Your point about the "ICE in some power plant somewhere" is temporarily true... as the grid de-carbonizes there will be fewer and fewer emissions from grid-scale generation. (Nuclear + renewables is my personal guess for where we're headed.) It's kind of sad that several threads here are playing devil's advocate. Unless some dramatically better tech takes the world by storm in the next 2-3 years, EVs are going to completely take over the market. Economies of scale should dramatically drive down costs over the next 5-10 years, and then all new cars will be EVs. No one will want the old, expensive, dirty, loud ICE cars. And this is really good news for everybody! [1] https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/gvg/learn-more-fuels.htm [2] https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310 [3] https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/
- colordrops 4y agoIt feels really satisfying to read being said clearly what you would think should really be obvious to everyone, rather than the constant FUD and waffling about EVs.
- Maxion 4y agoAnd even this comparison is lenient towards the ICE. That one gallon of gas doesn’t just poof into existence into the gas tank of the car, there’s a certain kWh requirement of energy to go from not having that gallon of gas, to having it. Obviously the same is true for the electricity in the EV, but that’s dependent on the energy mix in your area. If it’s primarily renewables, this is another efficiency increase in favor of the EV.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hot_gril 4y agoYeah, the only reason the EV doesn't obviously win without any calculation is because of the battery loss. And turns out it still wins.