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NSA: "it doesn't count as a 4th Amendment search if we don't find anything!" It's dumb, it's gross, but sadly it has been normalized -- if the Snowden leaks co

NSA: "it doesn't count as a 4th Amendment search if we don't find anything!" It's dumb, it's gross, but sadly it has been normalized -- if the Snowden leaks couldn't get the ball moving to rein them in, what can?

pvg 4y ago
The NSA warrantless wiretapping was reported in the regular news years before Snowden.
- alsaaro 4y ago
  I have a hunch that Snowden is a spy himself. Like Cypher in The Matrix, who wanted his machine masters to reinsert him as a celebrity after his betrayal, Snowden's Russian masters made him into a celebrity after his betrayal.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    If nobody in Russia so much as tried to milk Snowden for all he's worth, someone ought to have been fired. However, every impression I have of Snowden is that he is patriotic to the USA, and that the sole reason he is in Russia now is genuinely because of the pressure that the government of USA put on every other government to turn him over.
    - plonk 4y ago
      > However, every impression I have of Snowden is that he is patriotic to the USA, and that the sole reason he is in Russia now is genuinely because of the pressure that the government of USA put on every other government to turn him over. Can be both. NSA contractor sees unethical secret programs, gets disillusioned and considers disclosing them, Russian SVR somehow picks that up and encourages him to do it, maybe promises him support, money, or refuge if he does. Everybody wins, except the US.
      - simoncion 4y ago
        Snowden is in Russia because the US State Department revoked his passport, either leaving him stranded in Russia, or leaving him in limbo in the air between Hong Kong and Moscow (depending on exactly when they revoked it): https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/edward-snowden-passport-revoked https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/edw... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/edward-snowden-interview_n_5403117 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/edward-snowden-interview_n_54... https://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/u_s_revokes_snowdens_passport_sources_say/ https://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/u_s_revokes_snowdens_passpo... That's it. End of story. I remember reports that his likely ultimate destination was Venezuela or Guatemala, but these are distant, fuzzy memories, so they may not be correct. Folks have made a _ton_ of hay out of the fact that Snowden ended up in Russia... but the truth of the matter is that he's there because the State Department stranded him there.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        Ecuador.
        plonk 4y ago
        What makes you sure that the public story is the real one? It doesn't seem that hard to plan for Snowden to be in the right airport at the time his passport gets revoked, with some support. The fact that neither the US nor Russia went on record saying the opposite means nothing. The US might not believe they have anything to gain by trying to convince people that Snowden is a Russian agent. Doesn't mean it's false.
        ben_w 4y ago
        What would such support look like? I don’t have any reason to expect that the timing of the revocation would be sufficiently in his control to do that.
        plonk 4y ago
        That’s not what I meant. Assuming that Snowden had support from the Russian state, his handlers could easily guess how long his passport would last and help him get to the right places at the right time. Nothing public proves it, but neither does the GP have grounds to be confident that Snowden really got stuck in Russia by chance.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    if the us didn't want him in Russia, why did they cancel his passport when he was in the Russian airport?
    - mpyne 4y ago
      They canceled his passport even before he left China. He's always been welcome to return to the USA to face justice. But that's not what he wanted, and that's why he's in Russia, and why he was at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong for multiple days before he finally departed on a plane to Moscow [1]. He's a defector, so he's currently exactly where he wanted to be when he left. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-a...
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        "Justice".
- orthecreedence 4y ago
  Sure, but the revelations about PRISM are pretty damning.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    In what way? PRISM (as described in the leaked and declassified document instead of Greenwald's wacky interpretation of those documents) is very clearly legal.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Why is “legal” the bar here? What is something is legal but still bad otherwise?
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Building data processing systems to spy on foreigners outside the US who are national security risks isn't even "bad." It's better than bad, it's good!
        ok_dad 4y ago
        I’m sure that those systems can’t be repurposed to look inwardly…
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Yes, that would be against the law, and since the data comes from third parties who have to approve each request for which accounts to monitor, it is highly unlikely they could get away with it even if they didn't have numerous internal leaks and declassifications. In other words, your certainty is justified.
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anonporridge 4y ago
> if the Snowden leaks couldn't get the ball moving to rein them in, what can? Likely nothing. We'll all likely be ruled by Rehoboam soon, if not already. Surveillance and manipulation of the masses has always been a presence in civilization. It's most effective when the masses don't know or care that it's happening. So long as the watchers can keep the bread and circuses flowing, nothing will change.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Probably not already. Current AI is fast enough to read, watch, and listen to the entirety of human communication and media, but dumb enough that despite consuming a significant fraction of everything humans have put on the internet, they still only operate at the level of someone with medium-stage Alzheimer's (based on my experience caring for a relative with that). (Of course, that does suggest we're merely an algorithmic breakthrough from something genuinely transformative).
orthecreedence 4y ago
Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. I feel like US citizens as a whole are a lost cause. We're basically living the 1984 surveillance nightmare (remember the monitoring devices that lived in everyone's homes that were watching them?). The only difference is we've actually been duped to pay for the devices that spy on us and install them willingly. But it's soOoO convenient to ask Alexa "what's the weather like outside" (because sticking your head out the fucking front door is just, ugh, such a nightmare) or to save you from the unbelievably arduous and thankless task of having to flip a light switch with your finger. Definitely worth it.
- xxpor 4y ago
  It's not like 1984 at all. You're missing the important half of the equation. No one's (at an aggregate level) getting Room 101ed from it.
  - jaredhallen 4y ago
    This is true, at the moment. My concern is that things change over time, but what is the likelihood that the data is going away, or that the spying will suddenly stop? It seems almost inevitable that abuse will increase over time.
  - anonym29 4y ago
    The fundamental argument isn't that the power (indiscriminate & pervasive one-way invasion of privacy) wielded by the NSA is actively being abused (which isn't to say it's never abused, but that's besides the point), rather, the argument is that, as a democratic and free people, we should be staunchly opposed to freely granting the right for such power to exist. If one of our primary objectives as a liberal, democratic society is to avoid that kind of oppressive totalitarianism (as would be expected of a liberal democracy), then we have a duty to seek and employ the most effective strategy possible in avoiding that outcome. Two things are required for the type of totalitarian surveillance described in 1984: the technological means and the will of the state to demand such evil acts be committed. I'd argue that the best strategy to prevent an outcome that requires both means and will is to target the means. If the means exist, the state lacks only the will to utilize those means for evil ends (putting people in Room 101). If the state lacks the means, then even once the will to do evil does inevitably come along, the state will be rightfully shackled and lack the requisite tools to enforce such tyranny.
kvetching 4y ago
It was frustrating to listen to the literal CIA Spy on Lex Fridman call Snowden a traitor for exposing this system. He says America is less safe because of him, as if the program stopped because of Snowden.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Before Snowden people with a clue about the possibility of pervasive surveillance were derided as wearing tinfoil hats. Now we have pervasive use of TLS which makes it harder to pick data off of any random wire.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> if the Snowden leaks couldn't get the ball moving to rein them in, what can? Things happened. Encryption went mainstream, particularly in tech. Some minor but meaningful limits on dragnet surveillance were passed. Privacy has a problem of political nihilism. I worked on initiatives years ago. Simply getting people to show up to town halls led to endless bullshit about how America is hopelessly corrupt and why should they bother with a meaningless measure. Then the guys pushing a chicken farming bill show up and they all have flags and some are in costumes and they offer to petition and join the phone banks in her next campaign should she back the bill… Is there any reason for an elected to entertain the former?
autoexec 4y ago
I can't imagine how he must have felt, giving up everything he had (which was considerable), risking his life to let the US population know their rights were being abused and their freedom endangered, but even after all of that we've done nothing to change the situation and a sizable percentage of the population see Snowden himself as the problem. To our credit, we elected a man who promised to end spying on American citizens, but he ended up going back on is word and making it worse and no other presidential candidate since has spoken out against the NSA like he did.
- dannymi 4y ago
  >all of that we've done nothing to change the situation Everything is encrypted now, even recipe sites. For a chat program, the first question of even laypeople is whether it's encrypted or not. I'd say some things did change. But yeah, would be better to change the laws.
yieldcrv 4y ago
In Ross’ case, the argument from the state was that it wasn't a 4th amendment search unless Ross drops his 5th amendment protections to incriminates himself and confess that he - a US citizen - was the owner of the server I’ve seen cases thrown out for less
Eupraxias 4y ago
Fellwock's leaks were clearly ineffective. With Snowden, many were scratching their heads at first that it was 'news'.

pvg 4y ago

The NSA warrantless wiretapping was reported in the regular news years before Snowden.

alsaaro 4y ago
I have a hunch that Snowden is a spy himself. Like Cypher in The Matrix, who wanted his machine masters to reinsert him as a celebrity after his betrayal, Snowden's Russian masters made him into a celebrity after his betrayal.
- ben_w 4y ago
  If nobody in Russia so much as tried to milk Snowden for all he's worth, someone ought to have been fired. However, every impression I have of Snowden is that he is patriotic to the USA, and that the sole reason he is in Russia now is genuinely because of the pressure that the government of USA put on every other government to turn him over.
  - plonk 4y ago
    > However, every impression I have of Snowden is that he is patriotic to the USA, and that the sole reason he is in Russia now is genuinely because of the pressure that the government of USA put on every other government to turn him over. Can be both. NSA contractor sees unethical secret programs, gets disillusioned and considers disclosing them, Russian SVR somehow picks that up and encourages him to do it, maybe promises him support, money, or refuge if he does. Everybody wins, except the US.
    - simoncion 4y ago
      Snowden is in Russia because the US State Department revoked his passport, either leaving him stranded in Russia, or leaving him in limbo in the air between Hong Kong and Moscow (depending on exactly when they revoked it): https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/edward-snowden-passport-revoked https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/edw... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/edward-snowden-interview_n_5403117 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/edward-snowden-interview_n_54... https://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/u_s_revokes_snowdens_passport_sources_say/ https://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/u_s_revokes_snowdens_passpo... That's it. End of story. I remember reports that his likely ultimate destination was Venezuela or Guatemala, but these are distant, fuzzy memories, so they may not be correct. Folks have made a _ton_ of hay out of the fact that Snowden ended up in Russia... but the truth of the matter is that he's there because the State Department stranded him there.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Ecuador.
      - plonk 4y ago
        What makes you sure that the public story is the real one? It doesn't seem that hard to plan for Snowden to be in the right airport at the time his passport gets revoked, with some support. The fact that neither the US nor Russia went on record saying the opposite means nothing. The US might not believe they have anything to gain by trying to convince people that Snowden is a Russian agent. Doesn't mean it's false.
        ben_w 4y ago
        What would such support look like? I don’t have any reason to expect that the timing of the revocation would be sufficiently in his control to do that.
        plonk 4y ago
        That’s not what I meant. Assuming that Snowden had support from the Russian state, his handlers could easily guess how long his passport would last and help him get to the right places at the right time. Nothing public proves it, but neither does the GP have grounds to be confident that Snowden really got stuck in Russia by chance.
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  if the us didn't want him in Russia, why did they cancel his passport when he was in the Russian airport?
  - mpyne 4y ago
    They canceled his passport even before he left China. He's always been welcome to return to the USA to face justice. But that's not what he wanted, and that's why he's in Russia, and why he was at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong for multiple days before he finally departed on a plane to Moscow [1]. He's a defector, so he's currently exactly where he wanted to be when he left. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-a...
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      "Justice".
orthecreedence 4y ago
Sure, but the revelations about PRISM are pretty damning.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  In what way? PRISM (as described in the leaked and declassified document instead of Greenwald's wacky interpretation of those documents) is very clearly legal.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Why is “legal” the bar here? What is something is legal but still bad otherwise?
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Building data processing systems to spy on foreigners outside the US who are national security risks isn't even "bad." It's better than bad, it's good!
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        I’m sure that those systems can’t be repurposed to look inwardly…
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Yes, that would be against the law, and since the data comes from third parties who have to approve each request for which accounts to monitor, it is highly unlikely they could get away with it even if they didn't have numerous internal leaks and declassifications. In other words, your certainty is justified.
      - deleted 4y ago
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anonporridge 4y ago

> if the Snowden leaks couldn't get the ball moving to rein them in, what can? Likely nothing. We'll all likely be ruled by Rehoboam soon, if not already. Surveillance and manipulation of the masses has always been a presence in civilization. It's most effective when the masses don't know or care that it's happening. So long as the watchers can keep the bread and circuses flowing, nothing will change.

ben_w 4y ago
Probably not already. Current AI is fast enough to read, watch, and listen to the entirety of human communication and media, but dumb enough that despite consuming a significant fraction of everything humans have put on the internet, they still only operate at the level of someone with medium-stage Alzheimer's (based on my experience caring for a relative with that). (Of course, that does suggest we're merely an algorithmic breakthrough from something genuinely transformative).

orthecreedence 4y ago

Snowden pointed and everyone looked at his finger. I feel like US citizens as a whole are a lost cause. We're basically living the 1984 surveillance nightmare (remember the monitoring devices that lived in everyone's homes that were watching them?). The only difference is we've actually been duped to pay for the devices that spy on us and install them willingly. But it's soOoO convenient to ask Alexa "what's the weather like outside" (because sticking your head out the fucking front door is just, ugh, such a nightmare) or to save you from the unbelievably arduous and thankless task of having to flip a light switch with your finger. Definitely worth it.

xxpor 4y ago
It's not like 1984 at all. You're missing the important half of the equation. No one's (at an aggregate level) getting Room 101ed from it.
- jaredhallen 4y ago
  This is true, at the moment. My concern is that things change over time, but what is the likelihood that the data is going away, or that the spying will suddenly stop? It seems almost inevitable that abuse will increase over time.
- anonym29 4y ago
  The fundamental argument isn't that the power (indiscriminate & pervasive one-way invasion of privacy) wielded by the NSA is actively being abused (which isn't to say it's never abused, but that's besides the point), rather, the argument is that, as a democratic and free people, we should be staunchly opposed to freely granting the right for such power to exist. If one of our primary objectives as a liberal, democratic society is to avoid that kind of oppressive totalitarianism (as would be expected of a liberal democracy), then we have a duty to seek and employ the most effective strategy possible in avoiding that outcome. Two things are required for the type of totalitarian surveillance described in 1984: the technological means and the will of the state to demand such evil acts be committed. I'd argue that the best strategy to prevent an outcome that requires both means and will is to target the means. If the means exist, the state lacks only the will to utilize those means for evil ends (putting people in Room 101). If the state lacks the means, then even once the will to do evil does inevitably come along, the state will be rightfully shackled and lack the requisite tools to enforce such tyranny.

kvetching 4y ago

It was frustrating to listen to the literal CIA Spy on Lex Fridman call Snowden a traitor for exposing this system. He says America is less safe because of him, as if the program stopped because of Snowden.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Before Snowden people with a clue about the possibility of pervasive surveillance were derided as wearing tinfoil hats. Now we have pervasive use of TLS which makes it harder to pick data off of any random wire.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> if the Snowden leaks couldn't get the ball moving to rein them in, what can? Things happened. Encryption went mainstream, particularly in tech. Some minor but meaningful limits on dragnet surveillance were passed. Privacy has a problem of political nihilism. I worked on initiatives years ago. Simply getting people to show up to town halls led to endless bullshit about how America is hopelessly corrupt and why should they bother with a meaningless measure. Then the guys pushing a chicken farming bill show up and they all have flags and some are in costumes and they offer to petition and join the phone banks in her next campaign should she back the bill… Is there any reason for an elected to entertain the former?

autoexec 4y ago

I can't imagine how he must have felt, giving up everything he had (which was considerable), risking his life to let the US population know their rights were being abused and their freedom endangered, but even after all of that we've done nothing to change the situation and a sizable percentage of the population see Snowden himself as the problem. To our credit, we elected a man who promised to end spying on American citizens, but he ended up going back on is word and making it worse and no other presidential candidate since has spoken out against the NSA like he did.

dannymi 4y ago
>all of that we've done nothing to change the situation Everything is encrypted now, even recipe sites. For a chat program, the first question of even laypeople is whether it's encrypted or not. I'd say some things did change. But yeah, would be better to change the laws.

yieldcrv 4y ago

In Ross’ case, the argument from the state was that it wasn't a 4th amendment search unless Ross drops his 5th amendment protections to incriminates himself and confess that he - a US citizen - was the owner of the server I’ve seen cases thrown out for less

Eupraxias 4y ago

Fellwock's leaks were clearly ineffective. With Snowden, many were scratching their heads at first that it was 'news'.