4 ms·

You seem to have rapidly skipped over the exact thing no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. You just claimed people wou

You seem to have rapidly skipped over the exact thing no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. You just claimed people would complain. I've done exactly this, and everyone seemed happy.

ipaddr 4y ago
It shows you are serious about the candidate and feels like a reasonable level of risk on both sides.
matthewmacleod 4y ago
This rules out anybody who isn’t permitted to do that by their existing contract (which is the majority of people depending on jurisdiction) and still disadvantages people who are time-poor. It’s not much of a silver bullet.
stephencanon 4y ago
The only real issue with this one is that many folks you might want to hire are prevented from doing outside piecework like this by their contract with their current employer. That's not a dealbreaker, it just means that you either don't hire those folks, or you have two systems available.
- tommoor 4y ago
  Also visas, almost anyone on an employee sponsored work visa is not permitted to undertake contract work.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    Also people with no visas. At the point in time we're hiring, many of the people we're talking to don't have the legal right to work for us.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      that's not true if they are in their home country.
      - morelisp 4y ago
        That's true for a small group of country pairs, and also depends on any corporate structure the interviewee has set up. (Most have none set up, which makes it more difficult.)
        em-bee 4y ago
        it should be true for the majority of countries in this world that allow their citizens the freedom to do contract work, whether with a local or a foreign company. some may require registration as a sole proprietor of some sort, but not all. the primary difficulty is figuring out income taxes.
kasey_junk 4y ago
Many states in the US don’t have the moonlighting protections that California does. A paid assignment outside of their main employer will very frequently will be basis for dismissal, or at least will demand prior notification.
- warrenm 4y ago
  Not if it's done out of hours and on !work equipment
  - kasey_junk 4y ago
    This is wrong in the jurisdiction I live in (Illinois) where an employment contract is allowed to state that outside work is not allowed. Most contracts I’ve had will actually state “without manager approval” but that’s just as bad in many instances. [later] Actually this became illegal in Illinois at the beginning of this year, though the protections don’t extend to clients or competitors.
    - warrenm 4y ago
      The contract may state it It's unenforceable, according to everyone I've interacted with in the state :)
      - kasey_junk 4y ago
        It is now. As of Jan 1 2022. I can assure you it was enforced before that.
- thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
  I've been in a study which rewarded participants with the choice of which charity a small donation was sent to. Would that be sufficient motivation & work with US taxes?
- morelisp 4y ago
  Even in CA, moonlighting protections don't extend to clients or competitors, which is often the places you might want to interview.
geraldyo 4y ago
Right?? "The solution is this, but I'm SURE people wouldn't like it, so you all are complaining too much" What was the rate you chose?
jasode 4y ago
>no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. I've seen multiple comments in past HN threads of programmers complaining about any after-hours coding homework (even if paid) because "they have kids and don't have time or energy for that". Probably the only suggested interview method that gets the fewest complaints from candidates is the "let's have a casual chat and just shoot the breeze about past programming projects". The problem is that you get complaints from the hiring managers that it's too easy to bullshit and is the weakest signal to determine competency. I agree with gp (jerf). Ultimately, candidates just want to be hired without demonstrating skill. E.g. the college diploma should be enough. Or the resume should be enough. Or just low-stakes conversation should be enough. But the hiring managers don't want to do that.
- LocalPCGuy 4y ago
  I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments that gatekeep the profession to those that can spend hours of their own time after-hours, one that the vast majority of devs interviewing likely fall into. Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises) that specifically determine whether a candidate has the specific skills needed for the job at hand. But that is actually fairly hard to do right, and it's easy to just grab some semi-random "take home exercise" and hand it off and call it a proper assessment. A proper technical interview will have increasingly specific questions that will both assess skill level and a person's ability to communicate with the team. If there is an exercise, it should reflect the specific skills the person will be expected to use in the job at hand. And bonus points for flexibly adjusting between in-person or take-home depending on the interviewee's strengths and wishes in that regard.
  - jasode 4y ago
    >I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments [...] Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises) The problem is you're using your own perspective of "reasonable middle ground" and thinking that other candidates would agree with you. Many would not. Here's an example of "you shouldn't have to go through that crap when your resume clearly states you are capable." : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11596553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11596553 So regardless of any "job-specific" skills assessment you come up with, you will still get complaints from many because they feel their resume of experience, (or github portfolio, or college degree, etc) -- should already prove that they know how to code. This is not an uncommon sentiment! E.g. "Making me demonstrate my coding skill is an insult when you could just look at my resume credentials. Does a pharmacist show how they dispense pills to get hired?!?" Or variations on your "reasonable skills assessment" with creative exercises such as "here's an existing bug ticket for a code defect; show us how you debug it" ... still has some complaints of "demonstrating my coding skill is unfair because I get nervous in interview situations because there's an imbalanced power dynamic between interviewer and interviewee." Ok, instead of interview because you get nervous under pressure, here's some coding homework. Of which this "reasonable" alternative has pushback from some comments in this subthread. Various threads about "hiring is broken" is evidence of the ever elusive "reasonable middle ground" that we're chasing after.
bichiliad 4y ago
I interviewed somewhere a few months ago that asked me to reimplement something they'd built already, trying to be as pixel-accurate as possible. They paid me really well for my time (~$2k), they time-boxed it, they gave me a copy of their boilerplate framework, and they kept an open channel of communication with me so that I could ask questions. That, plus personal on-site interviews, felt like one of the best interview experiences I've ever had. It took up a lot of my week, though, and I know it would be tricky to be interviewing at multiple places at the same time like that. Others have mentioned portfolios, which is an idea I think makes a whole lot of sense.

ipaddr 4y ago

It shows you are serious about the candidate and feels like a reasonable level of risk on both sides.

matthewmacleod 4y ago

This rules out anybody who isn’t permitted to do that by their existing contract (which is the majority of people depending on jurisdiction) and still disadvantages people who are time-poor. It’s not much of a silver bullet.

stephencanon 4y ago

The only real issue with this one is that many folks you might want to hire are prevented from doing outside piecework like this by their contract with their current employer. That's not a dealbreaker, it just means that you either don't hire those folks, or you have two systems available.

tommoor 4y ago
Also visas, almost anyone on an employee sponsored work visa is not permitted to undertake contract work.
- morelisp 4y ago
  Also people with no visas. At the point in time we're hiring, many of the people we're talking to don't have the legal right to work for us.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    that's not true if they are in their home country.
    - morelisp 4y ago
      That's true for a small group of country pairs, and also depends on any corporate structure the interviewee has set up. (Most have none set up, which makes it more difficult.)
      - em-bee 4y ago
        it should be true for the majority of countries in this world that allow their citizens the freedom to do contract work, whether with a local or a foreign company. some may require registration as a sole proprietor of some sort, but not all. the primary difficulty is figuring out income taxes.

kasey_junk 4y ago

Many states in the US don’t have the moonlighting protections that California does. A paid assignment outside of their main employer will very frequently will be basis for dismissal, or at least will demand prior notification.

warrenm 4y ago
Not if it's done out of hours and on !work equipment
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  This is wrong in the jurisdiction I live in (Illinois) where an employment contract is allowed to state that outside work is not allowed. Most contracts I’ve had will actually state “without manager approval” but that’s just as bad in many instances. [later] Actually this became illegal in Illinois at the beginning of this year, though the protections don’t extend to clients or competitors.
  - warrenm 4y ago
    The contract may state it It's unenforceable, according to everyone I've interacted with in the state :)
    - kasey_junk 4y ago
      It is now. As of Jan 1 2022. I can assure you it was enforced before that.
thrwyoilarticle 4y ago
I've been in a study which rewarded participants with the choice of which charity a small donation was sent to. Would that be sufficient motivation & work with US taxes?
morelisp 4y ago
Even in CA, moonlighting protections don't extend to clients or competitors, which is often the places you might want to interview.

geraldyo 4y ago

Right?? "The solution is this, but I'm SURE people wouldn't like it, so you all are complaining too much" What was the rate you chose?

jasode 4y ago

>no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. I've seen multiple comments in past HN threads of programmers complaining about any after-hours coding homework (even if paid) because "they have kids and don't have time or energy for that". Probably the only suggested interview method that gets the fewest complaints from candidates is the "let's have a casual chat and just shoot the breeze about past programming projects". The problem is that you get complaints from the hiring managers that it's too easy to bullshit and is the weakest signal to determine competency. I agree with gp (jerf). Ultimately, candidates just want to be hired without demonstrating skill. E.g. the college diploma should be enough. Or the resume should be enough. Or just low-stakes conversation should be enough. But the hiring managers don't want to do that.

LocalPCGuy 4y ago
I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments that gatekeep the profession to those that can spend hours of their own time after-hours, one that the vast majority of devs interviewing likely fall into. Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises) that specifically determine whether a candidate has the specific skills needed for the job at hand. But that is actually fairly hard to do right, and it's easy to just grab some semi-random "take home exercise" and hand it off and call it a proper assessment. A proper technical interview will have increasingly specific questions that will both assess skill level and a person's ability to communicate with the team. If there is an exercise, it should reflect the specific skills the person will be expected to use in the job at hand. And bonus points for flexibly adjusting between in-person or take-home depending on the interviewee's strengths and wishes in that regard.
- jasode 4y ago
  >I think there is a big middle ground between no skill assessments/casual chat and onerous skill assessments [...] Hiring managers need to actually spend time constructing a process that has questions (and if needed, exercises) The problem is you're using your own perspective of "reasonable middle ground" and thinking that other candidates would agree with you. Many would not. Here's an example of "you shouldn't have to go through that crap when your resume clearly states you are capable." : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11596553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11596553 So regardless of any "job-specific" skills assessment you come up with, you will still get complaints from many because they feel their resume of experience, (or github portfolio, or college degree, etc) -- should already prove that they know how to code. This is not an uncommon sentiment! E.g. "Making me demonstrate my coding skill is an insult when you could just look at my resume credentials. Does a pharmacist show how they dispense pills to get hired?!?" Or variations on your "reasonable skills assessment" with creative exercises such as "here's an existing bug ticket for a code defect; show us how you debug it" ... still has some complaints of "demonstrating my coding skill is unfair because I get nervous in interview situations because there's an imbalanced power dynamic between interviewer and interviewee." Ok, instead of interview because you get nervous under pressure, here's some coding homework. Of which this "reasonable" alternative has pushback from some comments in this subthread. Various threads about "hiring is broken" is evidence of the ever elusive "reasonable middle ground" that we're chasing after.

bichiliad 4y ago

I interviewed somewhere a few months ago that asked me to reimplement something they'd built already, trying to be as pixel-accurate as possible. They paid me really well for my time (~$2k), they time-boxed it, they gave me a copy of their boilerplate framework, and they kept an open channel of communication with me so that I could ask questions. That, plus personal on-site interviews, felt like one of the best interview experiences I've ever had. It took up a lot of my week, though, and I know it would be tricky to be interviewing at multiple places at the same time like that. Others have mentioned portfolios, which is an idea I think makes a whole lot of sense.