7 ms·

Anonymous cash transactions in the Netherlands over €10,000 are already illegal (https://www.amlc.eu/cash-limit/ https://www.amlc.eu/cash-limit/). The governmen

Anonymous cash transactions in the Netherlands over €10,000 are already illegal (https://www.amlc.eu/cash-limit/ https://www.amlc.eu/cash-limit/). The government intends to ban cash transactions over €3,000.

hansvm 4y ago
The way I read that, large anonymous cash transactions in a non-professional capacity are still fine? Could I not gift somebody a million cash euros or buy a home with cash?
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Ahh... Gift tax (in all advanced countries in the world)? I am confused. Is this a serious post?
- oneplane 4y ago
  I doubt any company wil accept that, and suddenly owning a new house with no data on where that money might have come from will raise so many red flags, you'll be able too start a new flag company.
- jagged-chisel 4y ago
  In cash? Anonymously? Probably not, even without regulation.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  IIRC you can't buy a house anonymously in Netherlands, no matter if you pay with cash or not, you'd be required to register the transfer of ownership in the cadastral system, and any real estate deals must be with a written contract that identifies both parties. And I believe the NL tax reporting for large gifts also requires you to identify the donor. In essence, the limitation is not on the method of payment but on the core activity, that any significant income from contracts, deals, trades, barters, transfers, gifts, settlements etc need to be non-anonymous in order to be legitimate, so if the method of payment does not identify the payer (i.e. cash) then simply it's your duty to identify who you're dealing with, from whom you are earning money.
  - wolongong942 4y ago
    I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. Typically all large transactions get auto reported to the financial intelligence unit, with the tax man getting access to the data set as well. If paid via crypto they'd find out when the recipient cashes out, forcing him/her to do source of funds.
    - akimball 4y ago
      This is accomplished every day in every country in the western hemisphere by means of shell companies.
      - PeterisP 4y ago
        Current EU AML laws are full of requirements for explicit registration of the true beneficiaries for all these companies (including chains of companies); anonymous ownership of companies is becoming illegal in the last couple years.
        Scoundreller 4y ago
        Looks like the Dutch are just now catching up on that other structure to hide assets: trusts: https://www.loyensloeff.com/insights/news--events/news/bill-for-the-dutch-implementation-of-the-trust-register-approved-by-senate-/ https://www.loyensloeff.com/insights/news--events/news/bill-...
    - chimeracoder 4y ago
      > I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. In New York, properties are commonly held by LLCs. Transferring ownership of the LLC can be done without any public or auditable record of the transaction.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      At least in the US, house purchases are by default anonymous. The only reason I know the sellers of my house is because they put in their trust name their full legal names. Last time I sold a house, the only reason I met with the buyer directly was because I didn't use an agent for the sale.
- closewith 4y ago
  When buying a home, the transaction has to be reported anyway irrespective of value. The same is true for gifts. The Dutch Government also asked for a blanket ban on cash transactions above €5,000 to be included in AML 6/7 (although there wasn't wide support).
biglearner1day 4y ago
> Anonymous cash transactions So not crypto.
- closewith 4y ago
  The law also applies to barter with equivalent Euro thresholds, so cryptocurrencies aren't excluded. Anyway, the point stands, financial privacy (from the State, at least) is not a feature of life in the Netherlands (or anywhere in the EU, with AML3/4/5/6).
  - april_22 4y ago
    But wasn't the whole point of cryptocurrencies to be anonymus? or am I missing something here?
    - haakon 4y ago
      No, the point (if we go by Bitcoin's whitepaper) was to be digital cash transactable without middle-men.
    - ok123456 4y ago
      Non-privacy coins are about as anonymous as an IP address. Use monero.
  - neuronic 4y ago
    It's perfectly fine to pay off your 900k€ house with cash in Germany which is why it is considered a financial haven for all kinds of organized crime. > Germany No limit on cash payments for the purchase of goods. Consumers who want to pay amounts which are higher than 10. 000 Euro in cash, have to show their ID card. And the trader has to document the surname, first name, place of birth, date of birth, the home address and the nationality. https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cash-payment-limitations.html https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cas...

hansvm 4y ago

The way I read that, large anonymous cash transactions in a non-professional capacity are still fine? Could I not gift somebody a million cash euros or buy a home with cash?

throwaway2037 4y ago
Ahh... Gift tax (in all advanced countries in the world)? I am confused. Is this a serious post?
oneplane 4y ago
I doubt any company wil accept that, and suddenly owning a new house with no data on where that money might have come from will raise so many red flags, you'll be able too start a new flag company.
jagged-chisel 4y ago
In cash? Anonymously? Probably not, even without regulation.
PeterisP 4y ago
IIRC you can't buy a house anonymously in Netherlands, no matter if you pay with cash or not, you'd be required to register the transfer of ownership in the cadastral system, and any real estate deals must be with a written contract that identifies both parties. And I believe the NL tax reporting for large gifts also requires you to identify the donor. In essence, the limitation is not on the method of payment but on the core activity, that any significant income from contracts, deals, trades, barters, transfers, gifts, settlements etc need to be non-anonymous in order to be legitimate, so if the method of payment does not identify the payer (i.e. cash) then simply it's your duty to identify who you're dealing with, from whom you are earning money.
- wolongong942 4y ago
  I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. Typically all large transactions get auto reported to the financial intelligence unit, with the tax man getting access to the data set as well. If paid via crypto they'd find out when the recipient cashes out, forcing him/her to do source of funds.
  - akimball 4y ago
    This is accomplished every day in every country in the western hemisphere by means of shell companies.
    - PeterisP 4y ago
      Current EU AML laws are full of requirements for explicit registration of the true beneficiaries for all these companies (including chains of companies); anonymous ownership of companies is becoming illegal in the last couple years.
      - Scoundreller 4y ago
        Looks like the Dutch are just now catching up on that other structure to hide assets: trusts: https://www.loyensloeff.com/insights/news--events/news/bill-for-the-dutch-implementation-of-the-trust-register-approved-by-senate-/ https://www.loyensloeff.com/insights/news--events/news/bill-...
  - chimeracoder 4y ago
    > I doubt you could buy a house anonymously anywhere in the west. In New York, properties are commonly held by LLCs. Transferring ownership of the LLC can be done without any public or auditable record of the transaction.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    At least in the US, house purchases are by default anonymous. The only reason I know the sellers of my house is because they put in their trust name their full legal names. Last time I sold a house, the only reason I met with the buyer directly was because I didn't use an agent for the sale.
closewith 4y ago
When buying a home, the transaction has to be reported anyway irrespective of value. The same is true for gifts. The Dutch Government also asked for a blanket ban on cash transactions above €5,000 to be included in AML 6/7 (although there wasn't wide support).

biglearner1day 4y ago

> Anonymous cash transactions So not crypto.

closewith 4y ago
The law also applies to barter with equivalent Euro thresholds, so cryptocurrencies aren't excluded. Anyway, the point stands, financial privacy (from the State, at least) is not a feature of life in the Netherlands (or anywhere in the EU, with AML3/4/5/6).
- april_22 4y ago
  But wasn't the whole point of cryptocurrencies to be anonymus? or am I missing something here?
  - haakon 4y ago
    No, the point (if we go by Bitcoin's whitepaper) was to be digital cash transactable without middle-men.
  - ok123456 4y ago
    Non-privacy coins are about as anonymous as an IP address. Use monero.
- neuronic 4y ago
  It's perfectly fine to pay off your 900k€ house with cash in Germany which is why it is considered a financial haven for all kinds of organized crime. > Germany No limit on cash payments for the purchase of goods. Consumers who want to pay amounts which are higher than 10. 000 Euro in cash, have to show their ID card. And the trader has to document the surname, first name, place of birth, date of birth, the home address and the nationality. https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cash-payment-limitations.html https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cas...