5 ms·

I have a feeling this extends to several areas in Google. I come from the GDC side of things and have the exact same experience. To keep my job requires very mi

I have a feeling this extends to several areas in Google. I come from the GDC side of things and have the exact same experience. To keep my job requires very minimal effort on my part. In fact, nowadays I'm punishing myself by trying to do anything "above and beyond." This is mostly due to the rapid growth of committees and the struggle for power that has come out of it (i.e., I'm more likely to be denied by a change control board over political reasons). Regardless, I'm on my way out despite people's shock that I would leave such a "cushy" job. The fact of the matter is that the lack of challenge has actually caused me to spiral into a deep depression and the best decision for me personally is to move on.

tfandango 4y ago
You post strikes a chord with me. I have found over time that I personally require some mental challenge and some physical challenge to remain mentally healthy. Some days, work provides the mental challenge, the feeling you get by solving difficult problems. If we get too far into the weeds and end up in a constant state of talking about work instead of doing it, things begin to turn depressing until I need to supplement on the side by learning something new or whatever. Same goes physically for me, I keep pretty regular on working out but if I take a week or two off I start feeling sort of sad. Best of luck to you wherever you land!
hluska 4y ago
I hope you’re okay pal. But good on you for recognizing a problem and working hard for a solution!
olau 4y ago
I don't know if you're familiar with the book but "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber examined this phenomenon. He found that many people with bullshit jobs are struggling with deep unhappiness. Quit as soon as possible.
curiousgal 4y ago
Why do you look to your job for challenges. Why not simply look at it as a way to put food on the table and use the rest of your time and resources to seek out other challenges?
- lmarcos 4y ago
  Usually, jobs with challenges pay more. I switch jobs if both of these conditions are met: a) good enough challenges, b) pays more than current job
- dekhn 4y ago
  I can answer this- at the time I joined GOogle, my goal was to use their resources to enhance my future career as a researcher. Google gave me access to world class hardware, software, and employees, which I could use in ways that never would have been available at any other location. It helped me build and achieve a system that academia would not have allowed, that I could not have done on my own time and money. But my goal was always to take that newly learned skill and credibility and use it to go back to academia with a stronger hiring position. I mean, that's the mental model nearly all scientists have: couple your job with your interests to maximize your impact using other people's money and time.
  - soperj 4y ago
    Is that what you ended up doing? Are you happy with how it turned out?
    - dekhn 4y ago
      No, I would never return to academia now. i handle IT stuff for a large biotech, and looking at what scientist (both PIs and staff) have to put up with in academia, I don't think I'd be happy. Also, I just didn't boost my scientific creds enough to make a strong return.
- raincom 4y ago
  This is how govt employees treat their jobs in various countries. In the private sector, there is no job security. What happens when one gets laid off with rusty skills? That's why folks want to use the existing job to improve skills. That explains why people want to use new frameworks, tools, languages at work.
- tomgp 4y ago
zz20220810 4y ago
I went through a similar struggle to how I read your story. I had a cushy job that paid more than ever, my manager was great, and the work was easy, but I was struggling with depression. I ended up quitting and crashing on a friend's couch for a while, and despite making that change to be able to pursue more meaningful work, my depression didn't abate. I ended up crashing and burning in a pretty significant way, and it was rough. The point I wanted to make in sharing this story is that I wish I had taken the depression more seriously by itself and hadn't assumed that it was solely or maybe even largely caused by my job situation. Both from my experience with mental illness and from the scientific literature I've read, sometimes the big external issues are masks or plausible excuses for your body & mind to go into a depression because it makes sense that you have a big change outside, and so you get a big change inside. Sometimes those external changes do definitely cause big psychological struggles, but other times the depression kind of comes out because your psychological defenses feel comfortable enough that you will avoid addressing the root of the problem, and only address the external circumstances which you are able to reasonably enough blame your depression on. It's like a release valve in some way, but whose function is to avoid real psychological change at all costs, because the status quo is the safest place to be for our psyches. I'm not a scientist and you might describe this as some kind of "just so" explanation or too much into psychoanalysis, and that's certainly a possibility. But with this stuff I've found that often times our psyches are very cagey and difficult to really understand in a straightforward way. If my explaining this pattern I've observed in my own history is beneficial to you or anyone else reading this, or at the very least interesting, that's good enough for me.
- mochomocha 4y ago
  I think the theory you're describing is pretty interesting, I had never thought about depression this way.
- alexanderh 4y ago
  You've hit the nail on the head, and I think many people who have struggled with substance abuse disorders would agree: You can't fix whats inside by changing the outside... sure maybe changing external circumstance can help nudge you in the right direction, but it wont fix anything. Recovering drug addicts don't magically become functioning members of society just because they stopped using drugs... They do a lot of internal work, and find happiness within themselves, not within their surroundings or substances (or they go back to abusing drugs and die an addict). If you are interested in any of this I highly recommend reading about the psychology of drug addiction more, because it is so very relevant to anyone and everyone at the end of the day (and very related to what you're speaking about). Even non-addicts can learn a lot about themselves and how to be happy, by learning how recovering drug addicts do it. If a formerly homeless heroin addict can find his way to happiness and 6 figure income, why wouldn't your average person not want to learn more about that journey for their own benefit? This is why a lot of recovering addicts wind up being more effective at life than the average person IF they managed to overcome addiction and stay sober. Overcoming addiction is like a master class in effectively living life, being happy, and overcoming anything. Its unfortunate that so few make it, but there's a lot be learned from it.
wkdneidbwf 4y ago
a well paying job with low expectations sounds great, but actually sucks after a while. i’ve been there a couple times. it’s just not fulfilling. it brought out a weird mixture of guilt and sadness in me. i was getting great reviews, and by every measure was doing my job well. when i’ve moved on from those jobs i’ve been happier, grown more, and it’s led to more money.
- goldenManatee 4y ago
  This is why I don’t understand when some say that people would rather not work at all if given the opportunity and still live well. As people we need challenges to keep finding meaning in our lives. I’ve also experienced depression in the past as a result of getting paid but lack of work. Zuck and Pichai’s complain isn’t wrong, it’s just that they’re part of the problem for paid employees having little work, and it’s admittedly very hard for any of us to recognize when we’re the problem. Everyone suffers from bad leadership, from the employees to the boss.
Aperocky 4y ago
> lack of challenge has actually caused me to spiral into a deep depression Why does this have to be at work? Google might not offer you challenges but you can go rock climbing at Yosemite every other week if you wanted to (or whatever other challenging things you like)? Especially if you only need minimal effort to hang around.
- twayt 4y ago
  Because you often only get to join these companies if you’re passionate about your field of work. You can’t force a programmer to find meaning in rock climbing (for example). You might propose working on your passion for programming outside of work, but it’s complicated and people end up in two minds about that.
idontwantthis 4y ago
What if you keep the he cushy job, and use the money and freedom to find more meaning outside of work? Learn music, art, woodworking, a new language… It’s a lot harder to find meaning with less money and more work hours.
- Shocka1 4y ago
  Yeah this seems obvious to me. So many people have trained their minds to rely on their professional career to be happy. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with finding something you can stand, and then devoting yourself 100% elsewhere to something you love or want to learn/explore.

tfandango 4y ago

You post strikes a chord with me. I have found over time that I personally require some mental challenge and some physical challenge to remain mentally healthy. Some days, work provides the mental challenge, the feeling you get by solving difficult problems. If we get too far into the weeds and end up in a constant state of talking about work instead of doing it, things begin to turn depressing until I need to supplement on the side by learning something new or whatever. Same goes physically for me, I keep pretty regular on working out but if I take a week or two off I start feeling sort of sad. Best of luck to you wherever you land!

hluska 4y ago

I hope you’re okay pal. But good on you for recognizing a problem and working hard for a solution!

olau 4y ago

I don't know if you're familiar with the book but "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber examined this phenomenon. He found that many people with bullshit jobs are struggling with deep unhappiness. Quit as soon as possible.

curiousgal 4y ago

Why do you look to your job for challenges. Why not simply look at it as a way to put food on the table and use the rest of your time and resources to seek out other challenges?

lmarcos 4y ago
Usually, jobs with challenges pay more. I switch jobs if both of these conditions are met: a) good enough challenges, b) pays more than current job
dekhn 4y ago
I can answer this- at the time I joined GOogle, my goal was to use their resources to enhance my future career as a researcher. Google gave me access to world class hardware, software, and employees, which I could use in ways that never would have been available at any other location. It helped me build and achieve a system that academia would not have allowed, that I could not have done on my own time and money. But my goal was always to take that newly learned skill and credibility and use it to go back to academia with a stronger hiring position. I mean, that's the mental model nearly all scientists have: couple your job with your interests to maximize your impact using other people's money and time.
- soperj 4y ago
  Is that what you ended up doing? Are you happy with how it turned out?
  - dekhn 4y ago
    No, I would never return to academia now. i handle IT stuff for a large biotech, and looking at what scientist (both PIs and staff) have to put up with in academia, I don't think I'd be happy. Also, I just didn't boost my scientific creds enough to make a strong return.
raincom 4y ago
This is how govt employees treat their jobs in various countries. In the private sector, there is no job security. What happens when one gets laid off with rusty skills? That's why folks want to use the existing job to improve skills. That explains why people want to use new frameworks, tools, languages at work.
tomgp 4y ago

zz20220810 4y ago

I went through a similar struggle to how I read your story. I had a cushy job that paid more than ever, my manager was great, and the work was easy, but I was struggling with depression. I ended up quitting and crashing on a friend's couch for a while, and despite making that change to be able to pursue more meaningful work, my depression didn't abate. I ended up crashing and burning in a pretty significant way, and it was rough. The point I wanted to make in sharing this story is that I wish I had taken the depression more seriously by itself and hadn't assumed that it was solely or maybe even largely caused by my job situation. Both from my experience with mental illness and from the scientific literature I've read, sometimes the big external issues are masks or plausible excuses for your body & mind to go into a depression because it makes sense that you have a big change outside, and so you get a big change inside. Sometimes those external changes do definitely cause big psychological struggles, but other times the depression kind of comes out because your psychological defenses feel comfortable enough that you will avoid addressing the root of the problem, and only address the external circumstances which you are able to reasonably enough blame your depression on. It's like a release valve in some way, but whose function is to avoid real psychological change at all costs, because the status quo is the safest place to be for our psyches. I'm not a scientist and you might describe this as some kind of "just so" explanation or too much into psychoanalysis, and that's certainly a possibility. But with this stuff I've found that often times our psyches are very cagey and difficult to really understand in a straightforward way. If my explaining this pattern I've observed in my own history is beneficial to you or anyone else reading this, or at the very least interesting, that's good enough for me.

mochomocha 4y ago
I think the theory you're describing is pretty interesting, I had never thought about depression this way.
alexanderh 4y ago
You've hit the nail on the head, and I think many people who have struggled with substance abuse disorders would agree: You can't fix whats inside by changing the outside... sure maybe changing external circumstance can help nudge you in the right direction, but it wont fix anything. Recovering drug addicts don't magically become functioning members of society just because they stopped using drugs... They do a lot of internal work, and find happiness within themselves, not within their surroundings or substances (or they go back to abusing drugs and die an addict). If you are interested in any of this I highly recommend reading about the psychology of drug addiction more, because it is so very relevant to anyone and everyone at the end of the day (and very related to what you're speaking about). Even non-addicts can learn a lot about themselves and how to be happy, by learning how recovering drug addicts do it. If a formerly homeless heroin addict can find his way to happiness and 6 figure income, why wouldn't your average person not want to learn more about that journey for their own benefit? This is why a lot of recovering addicts wind up being more effective at life than the average person IF they managed to overcome addiction and stay sober. Overcoming addiction is like a master class in effectively living life, being happy, and overcoming anything. Its unfortunate that so few make it, but there's a lot be learned from it.

wkdneidbwf 4y ago

a well paying job with low expectations sounds great, but actually sucks after a while. i’ve been there a couple times. it’s just not fulfilling. it brought out a weird mixture of guilt and sadness in me. i was getting great reviews, and by every measure was doing my job well. when i’ve moved on from those jobs i’ve been happier, grown more, and it’s led to more money.

goldenManatee 4y ago
This is why I don’t understand when some say that people would rather not work at all if given the opportunity and still live well. As people we need challenges to keep finding meaning in our lives. I’ve also experienced depression in the past as a result of getting paid but lack of work. Zuck and Pichai’s complain isn’t wrong, it’s just that they’re part of the problem for paid employees having little work, and it’s admittedly very hard for any of us to recognize when we’re the problem. Everyone suffers from bad leadership, from the employees to the boss.

Aperocky 4y ago

> lack of challenge has actually caused me to spiral into a deep depression Why does this have to be at work? Google might not offer you challenges but you can go rock climbing at Yosemite every other week if you wanted to (or whatever other challenging things you like)? Especially if you only need minimal effort to hang around.

twayt 4y ago
Because you often only get to join these companies if you’re passionate about your field of work. You can’t force a programmer to find meaning in rock climbing (for example). You might propose working on your passion for programming outside of work, but it’s complicated and people end up in two minds about that.

idontwantthis 4y ago

What if you keep the he cushy job, and use the money and freedom to find more meaning outside of work? Learn music, art, woodworking, a new language… It’s a lot harder to find meaning with less money and more work hours.

Shocka1 4y ago
Yeah this seems obvious to me. So many people have trained their minds to rely on their professional career to be happy. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with finding something you can stand, and then devoting yourself 100% elsewhere to something you love or want to learn/explore.