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Are you suggesting that the Democratic Party should move to the left or to the right? Seen from Europe it is currently right of centre.

by rjsw 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago
Americans as a whole are right of center on economic issues compared to Europe. But the current tension in America revolves around cultural issues. On that, the Democratic Party is significantly left of center, to the point where they reject political debate on a number of cultural issues where Europeans debate and are willing to compromise. For example in 2016, the European Court of Human Rights rejected the claim that the “right to marriage” under the EU Convention on Human Rights encompasses same-sex marriage: https://eclj.org/marriage/the-echr-unanimously-confirms-the-non-existence-of-a-right-to-gay-marriage https://eclj.org/marriage/the-echr-unanimously-confirms-the-.... In Germany, same sex marriage became legal by legislative vote, with Angela Merkel voting against it (putting her to the right of Donald Trump on the issue). There was no political crisis around these votes. While many in Europe support same-sex marriage, most see it as a political issue, not something beyond the reach of the political process. Contrast the US, where progressives are talking about “packing” the Supreme Court over its rejecting the notion that the Constitution contains a right to abortion so expansive that it would render invalid nearly every abortion law in Europe. That decision made international news, with countries like France criticizing the Supreme Court, even though their own abortion laws were illegal under Roe, and the case in question, Dobbs, upheld a Mississippi law that was basically the same as the law in France.
- tptacek 4y ago
  There is no appetite in the Democratic party to pack the Supreme Court; it's a fringe position. Both poles of American politics are full of fringe ideas; on the left, you have things like "impeach Clarence Thomas", and on the right you have things like "defund the FBI and then have prosecutors in every red state secure punitive search warrants for Democratic politicians". It's true that Roe, especially as originally conceived, put America to "the left" of Europe. We're to the left of Europe on all sorts of things: bankruptcy laws, no-fault divorces, exclusion of illegally obtained evidence, same-sex marriage, the right to wear religious garb in public spaces, the insistence that religious education be kept out of public schooling, no mandatory military service, and, of course, the First Amendment. But your argument here includes a sleight of hand, because you confining your analysis to Dobbs itself, but ignore the state laws that it enabled, many of which are radically to the right of the European consensus. For instance, Ohio bans abortion at the moment a fetal heartbeat is detected, with no exceptions for rape or incest, so that a 10 year old girl had to be smuggled into a neighboring state within weeks of Dobbs passing. Your point is that Europe doesn't put these questions outside of the political process. But you've run far past the end zone with that (seemingly correct) argument, by trying, and failing, to characterize the positions of the American political poles. It's a shame, because the real point you have to make here is interesting; you shouldn't crud it up with the partisan stuff.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > There is no appetite in the Democratic party to pack the Supreme Court; it's a fringe position. Polls show significant numbers of Democrats support packing: https://www.newsweek.com/new-poll-shows-court-packers-will-fail-again-wake-scotus-leak-opinion-1711812 https://www.newsweek.com/new-poll-shows-court-packers-will-f.... It's not a majority, but it's hardly "fringe." > But your argument here includes a sleight of hand, because you confining your analysis to Dobbs itself, but ignore the state laws that it enabled, many of which are radically to the right of the European consensus. The European consensus on moral ideology versus politics enables laws (in Ireland until recently, and in Poland still) that are radically to the right of the European consensus on abortion. Nobody in Belgium is showing up to the houses of EHCR Judges over recent decisions rejecting the notion of rights to same-sex marriage and abortion. The point is that both Ohio and France view abortion as a matter of political line-drawing. People in France manage not to freak out about how people in Poland choose to draw the lines, so long as Polish law doesn't apply to them. In my view that makes Ohio and France more similar to each other than to California and New York, where many folks think that issues like abortion and same-sex marriage should be outside of the political process altogether.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      They polled immediately after the Dobbs leak; prior to that poll, it got like 25% support. It's a fringe position, and will get fringier. If you polled Democrats on whether we should impeach Clarence Thomas, you'd get substantial support, because Democrats hate Clarence Thomas, just like you'd easily get Republicans to support impeaching Sonia Sotomayor. The point you said you were making, about who does the line-drawing, is one I agree with. But, as I said, you misled when you implied Dobbs aligned policy with "Europe" (if you had said Dobbs had the ultimate effect of aligning us with Poland, I'd agree, but you didn't say that because we all know Poland is significantly to the right of the European consensus, and it would have harmed the partisan argument you tacked on).
      - rayiner 4y ago
        How does Dobbs align is with Poland? Do you think it will result in a national ban on abortion in the US?

Are you suggesting that the Democratic Party should move to the left or to the right? Seen from Europe it is currently right of centre.

by rjsw 4y ago

Are you suggesting that the Democratic Party should move to the left or to the right? Seen from Europe it is currently right of centre.

rayiner 4y ago

Americans as a whole are right of center on economic issues compared to Europe. But the current tension in America revolves around cultural issues. On that, the Democratic Party is significantly left of center, to the point where they reject political debate on a number of cultural issues where Europeans debate and are willing to compromise. For example in 2016, the European Court of Human Rights rejected the claim that the “right to marriage” under the EU Convention on Human Rights encompasses same-sex marriage: https://eclj.org/marriage/the-echr-unanimously-confirms-the-non-existence-of-a-right-to-gay-marriage https://eclj.org/marriage/the-echr-unanimously-confirms-the-.... In Germany, same sex marriage became legal by legislative vote, with Angela Merkel voting against it (putting her to the right of Donald Trump on the issue). There was no political crisis around these votes. While many in Europe support same-sex marriage, most see it as a political issue, not something beyond the reach of the political process. Contrast the US, where progressives are talking about “packing” the Supreme Court over its rejecting the notion that the Constitution contains a right to abortion so expansive that it would render invalid nearly every abortion law in Europe. That decision made international news, with countries like France criticizing the Supreme Court, even though their own abortion laws were illegal under Roe, and the case in question, Dobbs, upheld a Mississippi law that was basically the same as the law in France.

tptacek 4y ago
There is no appetite in the Democratic party to pack the Supreme Court; it's a fringe position. Both poles of American politics are full of fringe ideas; on the left, you have things like "impeach Clarence Thomas", and on the right you have things like "defund the FBI and then have prosecutors in every red state secure punitive search warrants for Democratic politicians". It's true that Roe, especially as originally conceived, put America to "the left" of Europe. We're to the left of Europe on all sorts of things: bankruptcy laws, no-fault divorces, exclusion of illegally obtained evidence, same-sex marriage, the right to wear religious garb in public spaces, the insistence that religious education be kept out of public schooling, no mandatory military service, and, of course, the First Amendment. But your argument here includes a sleight of hand, because you confining your analysis to Dobbs itself, but ignore the state laws that it enabled, many of which are radically to the right of the European consensus. For instance, Ohio bans abortion at the moment a fetal heartbeat is detected, with no exceptions for rape or incest, so that a 10 year old girl had to be smuggled into a neighboring state within weeks of Dobbs passing. Your point is that Europe doesn't put these questions outside of the political process. But you've run far past the end zone with that (seemingly correct) argument, by trying, and failing, to characterize the positions of the American political poles. It's a shame, because the real point you have to make here is interesting; you shouldn't crud it up with the partisan stuff.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > There is no appetite in the Democratic party to pack the Supreme Court; it's a fringe position. Polls show significant numbers of Democrats support packing: https://www.newsweek.com/new-poll-shows-court-packers-will-fail-again-wake-scotus-leak-opinion-1711812 https://www.newsweek.com/new-poll-shows-court-packers-will-f.... It's not a majority, but it's hardly "fringe." > But your argument here includes a sleight of hand, because you confining your analysis to Dobbs itself, but ignore the state laws that it enabled, many of which are radically to the right of the European consensus. The European consensus on moral ideology versus politics enables laws (in Ireland until recently, and in Poland still) that are radically to the right of the European consensus on abortion. Nobody in Belgium is showing up to the houses of EHCR Judges over recent decisions rejecting the notion of rights to same-sex marriage and abortion. The point is that both Ohio and France view abortion as a matter of political line-drawing. People in France manage not to freak out about how people in Poland choose to draw the lines, so long as Polish law doesn't apply to them. In my view that makes Ohio and France more similar to each other than to California and New York, where many folks think that issues like abortion and same-sex marriage should be outside of the political process altogether.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    They polled immediately after the Dobbs leak; prior to that poll, it got like 25% support. It's a fringe position, and will get fringier. If you polled Democrats on whether we should impeach Clarence Thomas, you'd get substantial support, because Democrats hate Clarence Thomas, just like you'd easily get Republicans to support impeaching Sonia Sotomayor. The point you said you were making, about who does the line-drawing, is one I agree with. But, as I said, you misled when you implied Dobbs aligned policy with "Europe" (if you had said Dobbs had the ultimate effect of aligning us with Poland, I'd agree, but you didn't say that because we all know Poland is significantly to the right of the European consensus, and it would have harmed the partisan argument you tacked on).
    - rayiner 4y ago
      How does Dobbs align is with Poland? Do you think it will result in a national ban on abortion in the US?