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She forcefully aborted a baby at 23 WEEKS, and reportedly and allegedly burned the body in conspiracy with family members. This has nothing to do with new abort

She forcefully aborted a baby at 23 WEEKS, and reportedly and allegedly burned the body in conspiracy with family members. This has nothing to do with new abortion laws in the USA. In any country in Europe it would too be considered absolutely illegal and inhuman.

ml_basics 4y ago
The limit for abortions in the UK is 24 weeks.
- piokoch 4y ago
  Strange, according to medical practice, fetus between 22 and 37 week is considered to be "premature babies" and are treated and saved. So even disregarding all moral/ethical questions such fetus is a human being, as it is able to stay alive outside the womb, so it is no longer "part of female body" (which is also not correct even for 1 day fetus, as fetus has its unique DNA and is not part of someone's body).
- MarcellusDrum 4y ago
  Doesn't make it right in the opinion of a lot of people though.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    Those peoples opinions are irrelevant.
    - MarcellusDrum 4y ago
      And what makes the opposite opinion relevant? Until it can be scientifically proven when and what makes a human being, all opinions on the matter are, well, subjective opinions. What makes 24 weeks the magic number for abortions? What's the difference between 24 and 25 weeks, in terms of fetus development? Why draw the line there, and not at 24.5 weeks? Or 23 weeks? The relevant and superior opinion you're holding is just an arbitrary number.
      - cgrealy 4y ago
        Exactly. Your subjective opinion (or mine for that matter) is not relevant to someone else’s situation.
- JW_00000 4y ago
  But you can't burn the body...
- thom 4y ago
  Worth noting that abortions in Great Britain are technically only legal for a series of specific medical reasons. It’s really only by (perhaps somewhat precarious) convention that doctors approve abortions outside those reasons. In this specific case it sounds like the girl would almost certainly be prosecuted.
neuronic 4y ago
The limit for medically aided abortion in Germany is 22 weeks, just to bring it up for context.
- idiocrat 4y ago
  Does the European week begins on Monday or Sunday?
  - uniqueuid 4y ago
    Everything pregnancy-related is calculated with day precision. Source: Have two kids.
- 16890c 4y ago
  No [1], the limit is 12 weeks. Any abortion above 12 weeks is a crime (except for special cases) and the doctor can be held accountable. What you're probably referring to is the fact that the pregnant woman will not be persecuted up until 22 weeks. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html
  - heinrichhartman 4y ago
    What value does a law have if you are not enforcing it?
    - Freak_NL 4y ago
      It gives conservative parties in a coalition something to hold on to while tentatively accepting the status quo. And it gives them hope that turning back the clock on women's reproductive rights might be possible if legislature or the judiciary ever shifts to a majority willing to undo them. It also allows commenters on websites to go “Ackchyually, …”, purposely ignoring the de facto legal situation, focusing on the de jure fiction instead.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
pluijzer 4y ago
In countries with proper abortion laws she could have done this legally and more humane.
- supreme_berry 4y ago
daniel_iversen 4y ago
Based on that description it sounds like many people would agree that justice needed to happen in this instance, but are we starting to judge facebook/Meta based on laws we agree with and laws we don't? That's a slippery slope no? And their business is built and funded by the data they have on people so it's not like they can easily solve the issue by not capturing data.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  Sure, but we shouldn't expect service providers to get in trouble with the law to protect their criminal users. That's why using a service which doesn't give the service provider access to the messages is crucial for privacy. Facebook could very well analyse only public data and not private conversations, using the private conversation as a feature to keep users on the platform. As it is, none of its offering offer secure messaging - which is understandable: 99% of their users don't care until they're in jail.
hayver 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hef19898 4y ago
  Nice to create a throwaway account just for that comment.
Retric 4y ago
Both the Netherlands and UK allow abortions for any reason at 23 weeks.
- varjag 4y ago
  It's at will in Norway up to 12 weeks and via specialist approved application to 18 weeks. In a number of European countries it is even more conservative.
  - krageon 4y ago
    It doesn't matter - EU citizens can go anywhere within the EU, so they'd just move to a place where this is okay and have it done anyway.
    - varjag 4y ago
      So you mean same as in the USA.
      - drakonka 4y ago
        Aren't certain states actively trying to make it illegal to go out of state for an abortion or support others in doing so[0]? If this is true, that doesn't sound the same at all; I know of no such attempts actively under way in the EU. [0] - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion-travel-restrictions-texas-republicans-1385437/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion...
        varjag 4y ago
        European states are unlikely to prosecute you for all but gravest breaches of domestic law while abroad. That doesn't mean it is legal however. You wouldn't want to have it on your medical record probably, and treating any complications can be problematic. Besides, the practicality of going elsewhere for abortion is a huge Q. For most people arguing for it, it's only a mental exercise. But we once tried to replace prescription glasses my wife left at home while on a trip in the UK. It's effectively impossible, don't tell me you can just walk to a clinic being a foreign national with no residence in the UK and ask NHS for abortion.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
defrost 4y ago
A-OK in Australia: >> Abortion is legal on request up to 24 weeks, and is legal beyond 24 weeks with the approval of two doctors. >> It is illegal to protest within 150 metres of an abortion clinic.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
KennyBlanken 4y ago
"It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others...is a frequent anti-abortion talking point by catholic organizations and is completely irrelevant, as they don't live in the EU. At an estimated 23 weeks, her abortion would have been legal in all the light-pink states in this chart: https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-roe-supreme-court https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-ro... Friendly reminder that she is accused, not convicted. She's also a minor, and likely living in poverty. Also, they allegedly discussed burning the fetus, but did not do so. Maybe temper your moral outage in light of those facts? You know what's inhuman? Making birth control and abortion as difficult as possible for poor folks to keep them in poverty so they make for easily-exploited worker-bees. The mother claims assets of $400. The child has no assets. Their county has an average individual income of $23,000/year. Here's a thought: if abortion outrages you, then heavily support contraceptive access and sex education. But...guess what the anti-abortion crowd are also vehemently against? What's clear is that the police had little evidence of a crime from an autopsy that showed the fetus had never breathed air, but still dug anyway - "we found it in a plastic bag so we had to make REALLY sure it wasn't suffocated" strains credulity. They went out of their way to try and fuck over a teenager living in poverty. Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-face... As for "inhuman", that's your opinion, friend. I really don't find myself getting morally outraged over it.
- languageserver 4y ago
  > "It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others what on Earth are you talking about? The most commmon "at will" limit in Europe is 12 weeks. The ONLY countries with more than 17 weeks gestrational limit is the Netherlands, Sweden. The UK, Chezhia, and Finland do not even legally have "at will" abortions, which might differ in practise. So while we can say that MAYBE UK is 20+ weeks that is still the ONLY country in Europe.

ml_basics 4y ago

The limit for abortions in the UK is 24 weeks.

piokoch 4y ago
Strange, according to medical practice, fetus between 22 and 37 week is considered to be "premature babies" and are treated and saved. So even disregarding all moral/ethical questions such fetus is a human being, as it is able to stay alive outside the womb, so it is no longer "part of female body" (which is also not correct even for 1 day fetus, as fetus has its unique DNA and is not part of someone's body).
MarcellusDrum 4y ago
Doesn't make it right in the opinion of a lot of people though.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cgrealy 4y ago
  Those peoples opinions are irrelevant.
  - MarcellusDrum 4y ago
    And what makes the opposite opinion relevant? Until it can be scientifically proven when and what makes a human being, all opinions on the matter are, well, subjective opinions. What makes 24 weeks the magic number for abortions? What's the difference between 24 and 25 weeks, in terms of fetus development? Why draw the line there, and not at 24.5 weeks? Or 23 weeks? The relevant and superior opinion you're holding is just an arbitrary number.
    - cgrealy 4y ago
      Exactly. Your subjective opinion (or mine for that matter) is not relevant to someone else’s situation.
JW_00000 4y ago
But you can't burn the body...
thom 4y ago
Worth noting that abortions in Great Britain are technically only legal for a series of specific medical reasons. It’s really only by (perhaps somewhat precarious) convention that doctors approve abortions outside those reasons. In this specific case it sounds like the girl would almost certainly be prosecuted.

neuronic 4y ago

The limit for medically aided abortion in Germany is 22 weeks, just to bring it up for context.

idiocrat 4y ago
Does the European week begins on Monday or Sunday?
- uniqueuid 4y ago
  Everything pregnancy-related is calculated with day precision. Source: Have two kids.
16890c 4y ago
No [1], the limit is 12 weeks. Any abortion above 12 weeks is a crime (except for special cases) and the doctor can be held accountable. What you're probably referring to is the fact that the pregnant woman will not be persecuted up until 22 weeks. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html
- heinrichhartman 4y ago
  What value does a law have if you are not enforcing it?
  - Freak_NL 4y ago
    It gives conservative parties in a coalition something to hold on to while tentatively accepting the status quo. And it gives them hope that turning back the clock on women's reproductive rights might be possible if legislature or the judiciary ever shifts to a majority willing to undo them. It also allows commenters on websites to go “Ackchyually, …”, purposely ignoring the de facto legal situation, focusing on the de jure fiction instead.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

pluijzer 4y ago

In countries with proper abortion laws she could have done this legally and more humane.

supreme_berry 4y ago

daniel_iversen 4y ago

Based on that description it sounds like many people would agree that justice needed to happen in this instance, but are we starting to judge facebook/Meta based on laws we agree with and laws we don't? That's a slippery slope no? And their business is built and funded by the data they have on people so it's not like they can easily solve the issue by not capturing data.

jokethrowaway 4y ago
Sure, but we shouldn't expect service providers to get in trouble with the law to protect their criminal users. That's why using a service which doesn't give the service provider access to the messages is crucial for privacy. Facebook could very well analyse only public data and not private conversations, using the private conversation as a feature to keep users on the platform. As it is, none of its offering offer secure messaging - which is understandable: 99% of their users don't care until they're in jail.

hayver 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hef19898 4y ago
Nice to create a throwaway account just for that comment.

Retric 4y ago

Both the Netherlands and UK allow abortions for any reason at 23 weeks.

varjag 4y ago
It's at will in Norway up to 12 weeks and via specialist approved application to 18 weeks. In a number of European countries it is even more conservative.
- krageon 4y ago
  It doesn't matter - EU citizens can go anywhere within the EU, so they'd just move to a place where this is okay and have it done anyway.
  - varjag 4y ago
    So you mean same as in the USA.
    - drakonka 4y ago
      Aren't certain states actively trying to make it illegal to go out of state for an abortion or support others in doing so[0]? If this is true, that doesn't sound the same at all; I know of no such attempts actively under way in the EU. [0] - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion-travel-restrictions-texas-republicans-1385437/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion...
      - varjag 4y ago
        European states are unlikely to prosecute you for all but gravest breaches of domestic law while abroad. That doesn't mean it is legal however. You wouldn't want to have it on your medical record probably, and treating any complications can be problematic. Besides, the practicality of going elsewhere for abortion is a huge Q. For most people arguing for it, it's only a mental exercise. But we once tried to replace prescription glasses my wife left at home while on a trip in the UK. It's effectively impossible, don't tell me you can just walk to a clinic being a foreign national with no residence in the UK and ask NHS for abortion.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

defrost 4y ago

A-OK in Australia: >> Abortion is legal on request up to 24 weeks, and is legal beyond 24 weeks with the approval of two doctors. >> It is illegal to protest within 150 metres of an abortion clinic.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

KennyBlanken 4y ago

"It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others...is a frequent anti-abortion talking point by catholic organizations and is completely irrelevant, as they don't live in the EU. At an estimated 23 weeks, her abortion would have been legal in all the light-pink states in this chart: https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-roe-supreme-court https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-ro... Friendly reminder that she is accused, not convicted. She's also a minor, and likely living in poverty. Also, they allegedly discussed burning the fetus, but did not do so. Maybe temper your moral outage in light of those facts? You know what's inhuman? Making birth control and abortion as difficult as possible for poor folks to keep them in poverty so they make for easily-exploited worker-bees. The mother claims assets of $400. The child has no assets. Their county has an average individual income of $23,000/year. Here's a thought: if abortion outrages you, then heavily support contraceptive access and sex education. But...guess what the anti-abortion crowd are also vehemently against? What's clear is that the police had little evidence of a crime from an autopsy that showed the fetus had never breathed air, but still dug anyway - "we found it in a plastic bag so we had to make REALLY sure it wasn't suffocated" strains credulity. They went out of their way to try and fuck over a teenager living in poverty. Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-face... As for "inhuman", that's your opinion, friend. I really don't find myself getting morally outraged over it.

languageserver 4y ago
> "It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others what on Earth are you talking about? The most commmon "at will" limit in Europe is 12 weeks. The ONLY countries with more than 17 weeks gestrational limit is the Netherlands, Sweden. The UK, Chezhia, and Finland do not even legally have "at will" abortions, which might differ in practise. So while we can say that MAYBE UK is 20+ weeks that is still the ONLY country in Europe.