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Facebook gives data to Nebraska police prosecuting teenager for abortion
- draw_down 4y ago
- languageserver 4y agoShe forcefully aborted a baby at 23 WEEKS, and reportedly and allegedly burned the body in conspiracy with family members. This has nothing to do with new abortion laws in the USA. In any country in Europe it would too be considered absolutely illegal and inhuman.
- ml_basics 4y agoThe limit for abortions in the UK is 24 weeks.
- piokoch 4y agoStrange, according to medical practice, fetus between 22 and 37 week is considered to be "premature babies" and are treated and saved. So even disregarding all moral/ethical questions such fetus is a human being, as it is able to stay alive outside the womb, so it is no longer "part of female body" (which is also not correct even for 1 day fetus, as fetus has its unique DNA and is not part of someone's body).
- MarcellusDrum 4y agoDoesn't make it right in the opinion of a lot of people though.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- cgrealy 4y agoThose peoples opinions are irrelevant.
- MarcellusDrum 4y agoAnd what makes the opposite opinion relevant? Until it can be scientifically proven when and what makes a human being, all opinions on the matter are, well, subjective opinions. What makes 24 weeks the magic number for abortions? What's the difference between 24 and 25 weeks, in terms of fetus development? Why draw the line there, and not at 24.5 weeks? Or 23 weeks? The relevant and superior opinion you're holding is just an arbitrary number.
- cgrealy 4y agoExactly. Your subjective opinion (or mine for that matter) is not relevant to someone else’s situation.
- JW_00000 4y agoBut you can't burn the body...
- thom 4y agoWorth noting that abortions in Great Britain are technically only legal for a series of specific medical reasons. It’s really only by (perhaps somewhat precarious) convention that doctors approve abortions outside those reasons. In this specific case it sounds like the girl would almost certainly be prosecuted.
- neuronic 4y agoThe limit for medically aided abortion in Germany is 22 weeks, just to bring it up for context.
- idiocrat 4y agoDoes the European week begins on Monday or Sunday?
- uniqueuid 4y agoEverything pregnancy-related is calculated with day precision. Source: Have two kids.
- 16890c 4y agoNo [1], the limit is 12 weeks. Any abortion above 12 weeks is a crime (except for special cases) and the doctor can be held accountable. What you're probably referring to is the fact that the pregnant woman will not be persecuted up until 22 weeks. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__218a.html
- heinrichhartman 4y agoWhat value does a law have if you are not enforcing it?
- Freak_NL 4y agoIt gives conservative parties in a coalition something to hold on to while tentatively accepting the status quo. And it gives them hope that turning back the clock on women's reproductive rights might be possible if legislature or the judiciary ever shifts to a majority willing to undo them. It also allows commenters on websites to go “Ackchyually, …”, purposely ignoring the de facto legal situation, focusing on the de jure fiction instead.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pluijzer 4y agoIn countries with proper abortion laws she could have done this legally and more humane.
- supreme_berry 4y ago
- daniel_iversen 4y agoBased on that description it sounds like many people would agree that justice needed to happen in this instance, but are we starting to judge facebook/Meta based on laws we agree with and laws we don't? That's a slippery slope no? And their business is built and funded by the data they have on people so it's not like they can easily solve the issue by not capturing data.
- jokethrowaway 4y agoSure, but we shouldn't expect service providers to get in trouble with the law to protect their criminal users. That's why using a service which doesn't give the service provider access to the messages is crucial for privacy. Facebook could very well analyse only public data and not private conversations, using the private conversation as a feature to keep users on the platform. As it is, none of its offering offer secure messaging - which is understandable: 99% of their users don't care until they're in jail.
- hayver 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hef19898 4y agoNice to create a throwaway account just for that comment.
- Retric 4y agoBoth the Netherlands and UK allow abortions for any reason at 23 weeks.
- varjag 4y agoIt's at will in Norway up to 12 weeks and via specialist approved application to 18 weeks. In a number of European countries it is even more conservative.
- krageon 4y agoIt doesn't matter - EU citizens can go anywhere within the EU, so they'd just move to a place where this is okay and have it done anyway.
- varjag 4y agoSo you mean same as in the USA.
- drakonka 4y agoAren't certain states actively trying to make it illegal to go out of state for an abortion or support others in doing so[0]? If this is true, that doesn't sound the same at all; I know of no such attempts actively under way in the EU. [0] - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion-travel-restrictions-texas-republicans-1385437/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/abortion...
- varjag 4y agoEuropean states are unlikely to prosecute you for all but gravest breaches of domestic law while abroad. That doesn't mean it is legal however. You wouldn't want to have it on your medical record probably, and treating any complications can be problematic. Besides, the practicality of going elsewhere for abortion is a huge Q. For most people arguing for it, it's only a mental exercise. But we once tried to replace prescription glasses my wife left at home while on a trip in the UK. It's effectively impossible, don't tell me you can just walk to a clinic being a foreign national with no residence in the UK and ask NHS for abortion.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- defrost 4y agoA-OK in Australia: >> Abortion is legal on request up to 24 weeks, and is legal beyond 24 weeks with the approval of two doctors. >> It is illegal to protest within 150 metres of an abortion clinic.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- KennyBlanken 4y ago"It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others...is a frequent anti-abortion talking point by catholic organizations and is completely irrelevant, as they don't live in the EU. At an estimated 23 weeks, her abortion would have been legal in all the light-pink states in this chart: https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-roe-supreme-court https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-ro... Friendly reminder that she is accused, not convicted. She's also a minor, and likely living in poverty. Also, they allegedly discussed burning the fetus, but did not do so. Maybe temper your moral outage in light of those facts? You know what's inhuman? Making birth control and abortion as difficult as possible for poor folks to keep them in poverty so they make for easily-exploited worker-bees. The mother claims assets of $400. The child has no assets. Their county has an average individual income of $23,000/year. Here's a thought: if abortion outrages you, then heavily support contraceptive access and sex education. But...guess what the anti-abortion crowd are also vehemently against? What's clear is that the police had little evidence of a crime from an autopsy that showed the fetus had never breathed air, but still dug anyway - "we found it in a plastic bag so we had to make REALLY sure it wasn't suffocated" strains credulity. They went out of their way to try and fuck over a teenager living in poverty. Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-face... As for "inhuman", that's your opinion, friend. I really don't find myself getting morally outraged over it.
- languageserver 4y ago> "It would be illegal in the EU!" aside from being wrong as pointed out by others what on Earth are you talking about? The most commmon "at will" limit in Europe is 12 weeks. The ONLY countries with more than 17 weeks gestrational limit is the Netherlands, Sweden. The UK, Chezhia, and Finland do not even legally have "at will" abortions, which might differ in practise. So while we can say that MAYBE UK is 20+ weeks that is still the ONLY country in Europe.
- suslik 4y agoWhat is worse, I wonder: Facebook that blindly follows the law or Facebook that tries to work out its own ethics...
- hnbad 4y agoThis is a false dichotomy. Facebook can't be ethically neutral. "Following the law" blindly has ethical implications. Facebook has demonstrated its ethics time and again. Contrary to what the far right fringe likes to pretend, those ethics just aren't exactly progressive. This is a lot like liberals complaining about "political ideologies" from a position steeped in a specific political ideology (i.e. neoliberalism) that is so commonplace as to have become as invisible to them as the air they breathe. Just because you don't write a manifesto about it or fit an exact archetype to the tee that doesn't mean your actions are politically or ethically neutral. Unless Facebook's decisions are literally decided by an unbiased random number generator, they follow one leaning or another, as conflicted, incomprehensible and incoherent as it may be.
- hunglee2 4y agothe implication of the headline is 'Facebook voluntarily doxxing a young woman who wanted an abortion', when the reality is Facebook complied with a legal request by the police to information in the prosecution of a crime. What do we want Facebook to do - not obey the law?
- neuronic 4y agoInternet headlines are a real big problem. They are typically designed to produce the most attention and clicks. Boulevard media newspapers had the same issue, but you could read like 1 or 2 headlines a day while now it's 50 just on the HN frontpage. Most context is then found in the article itself, often directly contradicting the headline or revealing how it was carefully designed to produce a click without making a false claim. Most people will just read the headline without clicking anyway and be emotionally riled up due to its implication. It's really dangerous in an information society.
- hunglee2 4y ago100%. Often not even written by the author of the post either but by sub-editors who somehow have the responsibility. Being click driven is one motivation, being a political advocate might be another. Serious problem indeed
- ls15 4y ago> What do we want Facebook to do - not obey the law? Implement end-to-end encryption, so they cannot read or hand over private communication in the first place.
- hunglee2 4y agoyes agree with this - but as it currently stands, they have to comply. Furthermore, looking at legislation coming out of the EU, which places interoperability between services as a key element of anti-monopolisation, it may well soon be impossible for any social network to implement end-to-end encryption and stay compliant. Our problem is that we have failed to defend big tech, against big govt having fallen for the 'big tech bad' narrative and now we may well reap what we sow.
- throwaway4086 4y agoIt looks like most of the reporting on this story including this one have been wrong: https://about.fb.com/news/2022/08/meta-response-nebraska-abortion-case/ https://about.fb.com/news/2022/08/meta-response-nebraska-abo...
- youngtaff 4y agoYeh but given’s Facebook’s record at not telling the truth in multiple legal / regulatory filings why should we believe their press release?
- thriftwy 4y agoI not sure - can a U.S. state persecute you for something happened in another state entirely? Is this even legal? Maybe a time for yet another of your amendments.
- LatteLazy 4y agoIn theory no, but the devil is in the detail: Can they prosecute you for leaving the state to do something that would be illegal in the home state? Can they prosecute you for helping someone leave the state for the to do something illegal in the home state? Texas's law lets people sue each other for those acts and usually you can sue someone in one state under that state's laws and expect the judgement to be enforced in other states Plenty of states have now passed such laws to try to ban abortion. Whether they are enforceable will end up with SCOTUS. But SCOTUS is the same institution that reversed Roe vs Wade. So I would not expect them to take a practical or precedent based approach to the question "can I go to a blue state to get an abortion if I am pregnant in a red state"...
- thriftwy 4y ago"Can they prosecute you for leaving the state to do something that would be illegal in the home state" The answer is overwhelmingly "no". It is not legal to gamble in most jurisdictions, but noone is persecuted for going to casino in an area where those are allowed.
- atoav 4y agoWhile I think Facebook probably had to comply with the law here, I do think this is data they should not have had access to in the first place. You cannot be forced to give data you do not posess, which is why end-to-end encryption is a thing
- arcticbull 4y agoE2E is only a thing if you trust the app at both ends - which in a lot of E2E solutions means a closed-source blob that could be collecting and sending back the exact same data but mined from the client. It's not a panacea unfortunately.
- atoav 4y agoUsing an app won't be necessary since their web developement is mobile first, right? /s
- edrxty 4y agoThe point they're making is that if facebook didn't insist on mining everyone's chat histories, they wouldn't be in hot water for having to comply with bullshit search warrants. This is a solved problem in the tech space, they just choose profits over the safety of their users and now they get to reap the PR rewards. I fucking hate apple but the model they're taking is to take reasonable steps to frustrate state level actors (minus the CP photo upload thing) and as such have set a standard that needs to be followed.
- snoopy_telex 4y agoAll it would take is for the user to use iCloud backups, which are enabled by default, for Apple to be able to hand over the users complete iMessage archive. Apple has done a wonderful job marketing something that doesn’t Turkey exist.
- arcticbull 4y agoMy point was if they wanted E2E data, they'd just send it back to the server from the recipient. You have to trust the recipient app not to.
- slaw 4y ago> Facebook has given information to Nebraska police to prosecute a teenager for abortion despite claims to encrypt user data. I am not aware of Facebook claims to encrypt user data. Quite the opposite I would assume any information I transfer using Facebook/Google/Apple is semi public.
- uniqueuid 4y agoMedium-large discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32401381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32401381
- password4321 4y ago"Facebook Gave Police Teenager's DMs in Abortion Prosecution" (360+ comments) Also "The Data Facebook Gave Police to Prosecute a Teenager for Abortion" (90+ comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32404046 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32404046
- waffleiron 4y agoWhen companies comply with laws HN doesn't agree with in China or Russia people are up in arms, however when it happens in the US with a company that is close to many users here we see "They have to comply with the law". Google continuously skirts GDPR and other data privacy laws, but when it comes to sharing private messaging information there is nothing they could have done? While I agree that they probably had to comply, coldly explaining away an act many see as immoral as "it's the law" isn't helping the conversation. Sure it's the law, but the US a history of immoral laws that have been repealed only after someone took a stand and broke them. edit: it's -> isn't
- legacynl 4y ago> The teenager ... will be tried as an adult Why does the US criminal system do this? Who at the court gets to decide that 17 is the same as 21 in this case?
- edrxty 4y agoIt's just a way of increasing the penalties for really severe crimes committed by people near the threshold but it's become a tried and true legal maneuver for prosecutors who want to appear tough on crime. Whenever you see "tried as an adult" in any press release it's usually just there to give their constituents a justice boner while destroying some (low SES/high melanin) kid.
- refurb 4y agoPlenty of systems do this - Canada is another. It's not like the age of "adulthood" is some fixed number and if you're 17 years, 364 days old you're not an adult.
- OmarAssadi 4y agoBut the same concept of “basically an adult” does not apply to other things, generally. For example, places without Romeo and Juliet laws punish couples where one is barely adult for sleeping with someone who is nearly an adult. Young couples are also regularly charged with manufacturing/possession/distribution of child pornography in those cases too. And people also aren’t getting to buy alcohol when they are 20-years-and-364-days-old either, etc. There is a lot where the system treats adulthood and rights as a black and white thing, yet grey when someone wants to make an example out of a child.
- refurb 4y agoJudge have leeway sometimes. Some laws are written as "no exception" (i.e. mandatory sentencing) others judging can use their own discretion on not only punishment but application of the law. Being charged as a minor is usually because one assumes minor lack the judgement of adults and it makes more sense to focus on rehabilitation for young offenders. But if a young offender clearly acted with premeditated malice then they can be treated as an adult.