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>In this case, Burgess was 28 weeks pregnant, which is later in pregnancy than mifepristone and misoprostol are recommended for use. 28 weeks is, of course, 7

>In this case, Burgess was 28 weeks pregnant, which is later in pregnancy than mifepristone and misoprostol are recommended for use. 28 weeks is, of course, 7 months. Third trimester elective abortion is illegal in the UK, Spain, France, Germany...

MilnerRoute 4y ago
I'm still really surprised. Surprised that a prosecution happened for a 17-year-old girl. And that Facebook gave that 17-year-old girl's private messages to the police to facilitate that prosecution.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mlyle 4y ago
  > Surprised that a prosecution happened for a 17-year-old girl. Yes, this is a total waste. Is this making the world a better place? > And that Facebook gave that 17-year-old girl's private messages to the police to facilitate that prosecution. I'm not surprised that Facebook complied with a lawfully issued search warrant.
  - washbrain 4y ago
    The US justice system isn't about reformation or improving the country. It's a system designed to mete out punishment and revenge. It is both deeply tragic and entirely typical that a case like this is progressing in the US.
- gambiting 4y ago
  I disagree with the entire idea of prosecution here, I think it's wrong, but I think we should recognize that Facebook was served with a lawful warrant for data here - surely we want facebook to obey the law in the countries they operate, and if a warrant is presented they should comply?
  - iepathos 4y ago
    Yes, Facebook had to comply and because Facebook doesn't implement end-to-end encryption so that they can data mine their users' chat they had to provide the details. They could alternatively implement end-to-end encryption to protect themselves and their users from these warrants. Something like Signal where the service doesn't know what the messages are that are being sent between users so warrants for seizing that data have no impact on the users' privacy.
    - selwynii 4y ago
      Yes, and E2EE was rolled out in 2016 to Messenger, and then was planned to be the default until regulators and NCMEC started screaming about CSAM, and rightly so. It's lose lose. https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/27/22904650/meta-facebook-messenger-end-to-end-encryption-chat-video-call https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/27/22904650/meta-facebook-me...
    - ahahahahah 4y ago
      > Facebook doesn't implement end-to-end encryption This is, literally, a lie. Both messenger and WhatsApp have e2ee implemented.
      - JetSpiegel 4y ago
        Maybe. Have you checked the new Web Whatsapp, it can work without your phone being on. So this is not clear cut now.
mlyle 4y ago
Weeks is a reasonable metric; it's what's used in those laws in Europe, too. Note that there's a ~2 week difference in the week metric between the way we talk about pregnancy (weeks since LMP) and the way these laws are generally written (weeks since conception).
Someone 4y ago
I don’t think using weeks was anything other than following regular practice. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy: “Childbirth typically occurs around 40 weeks from the start of the last menstrual period (LMP), a span known as the gestational age. This is just over nine months. Counting by fertilization age, the length is about 38 weeks.” I think that’s because months vary in length, making it relatively hard for people to count with them. Example: 28 weeks isn’t 7 months, it is slightly less than 6½ average months (6 months is a tiny bit over 26 weeks, and two weeks under half an average month)
MilnerRoute 4y ago
Interestingly, Motherboard says 28-week abortions are perfectly legal -- in about half of America. But Nebraska moved the line between legal and illegal by eight weeks, to 20 weeks. (For what it's worth, this all happened before the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade, so that's the issue here: the state's own stricter 20-week deadline.) The 17-year-old will be tried as an adult, on a felony and two misdemeanor charges. Motherboard adds: "Facebook and other tech platforms have previously declined to say whether they would give law enforcement data that relates to abortion cases. This case shows that Facebook, at least, will and already has."
rcoveson 4y ago
The overwhelming majority of babies delivered in a hostpital at 28 weeks survive. It would have had a < 50% chance of lasting complications. I actually had a cousin born recently who was more premature than this. It's tragic to think of the circumstances that drove somebody to this, but you could say that about any act of violence.
guelo 4y ago
Why is the European angle suddenly in every abortion discussion? I'm fascinated by how these kind of talking points emerge and then are suddenly everywhere, must be some kind of influencer coordination. (I'll probably get down voted for this because whenever I bring this kind of thing up people seem to get personally offended. Even though it's not your talking point, you picked up somewhere recently)
- bpodgursky 4y ago
  Because it's incredibly annoying to hear Europeans to complain about the oppression of US abortion laws which are actually more permissive than the ones in their own country.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    The oppression in the US appears to be on the procedural side of things rather than the laws themselves. The impression I often get is that in the US the enforcement of such laws is rather more capricious and hard to predict than in Europe. I think what most Europeans find difficult to understand is quite how partisan the US system is and how little support is available for those caught up in legal difficulties of this kind. Just my impression of course, but impression seems to be what a lot of it is about.
- botverse 4y ago
  Because in Europe there are a lot of civilised countries with freedoms to aspire to.
  - thereare5lights 4y ago
    This doesn't answer the question. Why should we care what the European standard for abortion is? Whether or not they have other freedoms that we don't have is irrelevant.
    - drpyser22 4y ago
      Irrelevant to you maybe? Looking at others for reference and comparison is standard practice. Also, i assume this hackernews community involves a number of European people.

MilnerRoute 4y ago

I'm still really surprised. Surprised that a prosecution happened for a 17-year-old girl. And that Facebook gave that 17-year-old girl's private messages to the police to facilitate that prosecution.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mlyle 4y ago
> Surprised that a prosecution happened for a 17-year-old girl. Yes, this is a total waste. Is this making the world a better place? > And that Facebook gave that 17-year-old girl's private messages to the police to facilitate that prosecution. I'm not surprised that Facebook complied with a lawfully issued search warrant.
- washbrain 4y ago
  The US justice system isn't about reformation or improving the country. It's a system designed to mete out punishment and revenge. It is both deeply tragic and entirely typical that a case like this is progressing in the US.
gambiting 4y ago
I disagree with the entire idea of prosecution here, I think it's wrong, but I think we should recognize that Facebook was served with a lawful warrant for data here - surely we want facebook to obey the law in the countries they operate, and if a warrant is presented they should comply?
- iepathos 4y ago
  Yes, Facebook had to comply and because Facebook doesn't implement end-to-end encryption so that they can data mine their users' chat they had to provide the details. They could alternatively implement end-to-end encryption to protect themselves and their users from these warrants. Something like Signal where the service doesn't know what the messages are that are being sent between users so warrants for seizing that data have no impact on the users' privacy.
  - selwynii 4y ago
    Yes, and E2EE was rolled out in 2016 to Messenger, and then was planned to be the default until regulators and NCMEC started screaming about CSAM, and rightly so. It's lose lose. https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/27/22904650/meta-facebook-messenger-end-to-end-encryption-chat-video-call https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/27/22904650/meta-facebook-me...
  - ahahahahah 4y ago
    > Facebook doesn't implement end-to-end encryption This is, literally, a lie. Both messenger and WhatsApp have e2ee implemented.
    - JetSpiegel 4y ago
      Maybe. Have you checked the new Web Whatsapp, it can work without your phone being on. So this is not clear cut now.

mlyle 4y ago

Weeks is a reasonable metric; it's what's used in those laws in Europe, too. Note that there's a ~2 week difference in the week metric between the way we talk about pregnancy (weeks since LMP) and the way these laws are generally written (weeks since conception).

Someone 4y ago

I don’t think using weeks was anything other than following regular practice. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy: “Childbirth typically occurs around 40 weeks from the start of the last menstrual period (LMP), a span known as the gestational age. This is just over nine months. Counting by fertilization age, the length is about 38 weeks.” I think that’s because months vary in length, making it relatively hard for people to count with them. Example: 28 weeks isn’t 7 months, it is slightly less than 6½ average months (6 months is a tiny bit over 26 weeks, and two weeks under half an average month)

MilnerRoute 4y ago

Interestingly, Motherboard says 28-week abortions are perfectly legal -- in about half of America. But Nebraska moved the line between legal and illegal by eight weeks, to 20 weeks. (For what it's worth, this all happened before the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade, so that's the issue here: the state's own stricter 20-week deadline.) The 17-year-old will be tried as an adult, on a felony and two misdemeanor charges. Motherboard adds: "Facebook and other tech platforms have previously declined to say whether they would give law enforcement data that relates to abortion cases. This case shows that Facebook, at least, will and already has."

rcoveson 4y ago

The overwhelming majority of babies delivered in a hostpital at 28 weeks survive. It would have had a < 50% chance of lasting complications. I actually had a cousin born recently who was more premature than this. It's tragic to think of the circumstances that drove somebody to this, but you could say that about any act of violence.

guelo 4y ago

Why is the European angle suddenly in every abortion discussion? I'm fascinated by how these kind of talking points emerge and then are suddenly everywhere, must be some kind of influencer coordination. (I'll probably get down voted for this because whenever I bring this kind of thing up people seem to get personally offended. Even though it's not your talking point, you picked up somewhere recently)

bpodgursky 4y ago
Because it's incredibly annoying to hear Europeans to complain about the oppression of US abortion laws which are actually more permissive than the ones in their own country.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  The oppression in the US appears to be on the procedural side of things rather than the laws themselves. The impression I often get is that in the US the enforcement of such laws is rather more capricious and hard to predict than in Europe. I think what most Europeans find difficult to understand is quite how partisan the US system is and how little support is available for those caught up in legal difficulties of this kind. Just my impression of course, but impression seems to be what a lot of it is about.
botverse 4y ago
Because in Europe there are a lot of civilised countries with freedoms to aspire to.
- thereare5lights 4y ago
  This doesn't answer the question. Why should we care what the European standard for abortion is? Whether or not they have other freedoms that we don't have is irrelevant.
  - drpyser22 4y ago
    Irrelevant to you maybe? Looking at others for reference and comparison is standard practice. Also, i assume this hackernews community involves a number of European people.