4 ms·

Probable cause?

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Whatever evidence was presented, it’s damning, based on a the approval chain to execute such a search (DOJ + a federal judge). Most likely it was the National Archives. Federal law bars the removal of classified documents to unauthorized locations.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Surely the President has the power to authorize locations and/or declassify documents.
  - decebalus1 4y ago
    Probably (not a legal scholar) but I'm sure it applies to sitting presidents, not former presidents.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      But wasn't he President when he took the documents to MAL, or at the very least, when he packed them to go to MAL? Or did he somehow take them after leaving the White House? I don't know what charges the FBI will bring in this case, but for the sake of the nation, I hope they are something more serious than just failing to write a note saying "I authorize myself to take these documents."
      - joezydeco 4y ago
        @renato_mariotti: "James Comey was right when he testified that the DOJ typically does not prosecute cases involving the mishandling of classified material unless that material was deliberately transferred to a third party. That suggests to me that there is something we don't know here."
      - decebalus1 4y ago
        > but for the sake of the nation It honestly does not matter at this point. Remember when Trump said “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters"? Still holds up today and he's not even running for anything. The feds can find the most damning evidence of the most heinous crimes and will still not change the minds of the MAGA crowd. We're in the post-reason context right now.
  - croon 4y ago
    For example, from the Presidential Records Act: > Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing. (emphasis mine) > Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office. https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-ac... I'm hesitant to entertain the idea of a chief executive who could do anything with impunity.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Yeah, I'm not surprised if Trump didn't follow proper procedures. Disdain for proper procedures is very on-brand. But the PRA [1] doesn't appear to contain any penalties. What happens when someone disobeys a law that doesn't specify a penalty? (One section, 2209, does specify a penalty for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts, but that penalty is limited to suspension or reduction in pay, and doesn't apply to the President, only his staff.) I suspect that all they can do based on the PRA is take the records, and we won't see any further action based on that. 1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/chapter-22 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/chapter-22
      - croon 4y ago
        > Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. > Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2012-title18/html/USCODE-2012-title18-partI-chap101.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2012-title18/html...
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Nuclear related documents: https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-08-11/fbi-sought-nuclear-documents-in-search-of-trumps-home-washington-post https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-08-11/fbi... > U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.

Probable cause?

Whatever evidence was presented, it’s damning, based on a the approval chain to execute such a search (DOJ + a federal judge). Most likely it was the National Archives. Federal law bars the removal of classified documents to unauthorized locations.

leereeves 4y ago
Surely the President has the power to authorize locations and/or declassify documents.
- decebalus1 4y ago
  Probably (not a legal scholar) but I'm sure it applies to sitting presidents, not former presidents.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    But wasn't he President when he took the documents to MAL, or at the very least, when he packed them to go to MAL? Or did he somehow take them after leaving the White House? I don't know what charges the FBI will bring in this case, but for the sake of the nation, I hope they are something more serious than just failing to write a note saying "I authorize myself to take these documents."
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      @renato_mariotti: "James Comey was right when he testified that the DOJ typically does not prosecute cases involving the mishandling of classified material unless that material was deliberately transferred to a third party. That suggests to me that there is something we don't know here."
    - decebalus1 4y ago
      > but for the sake of the nation It honestly does not matter at this point. Remember when Trump said “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters"? Still holds up today and he's not even running for anything. The feds can find the most damning evidence of the most heinous crimes and will still not change the minds of the MAGA crowd. We're in the post-reason context right now.
- croon 4y ago
  For example, from the Presidential Records Act: > Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing. (emphasis mine) > Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office. https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-ac... I'm hesitant to entertain the idea of a chief executive who could do anything with impunity.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm not surprised if Trump didn't follow proper procedures. Disdain for proper procedures is very on-brand. But the PRA [1] doesn't appear to contain any penalties. What happens when someone disobeys a law that doesn't specify a penalty? (One section, 2209, does specify a penalty for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts, but that penalty is limited to suspension or reduction in pay, and doesn't apply to the President, only his staff.) I suspect that all they can do based on the PRA is take the records, and we won't see any further action based on that. 1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/chapter-22 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/44/chapter-22
    - croon 4y ago
      > Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. > Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2012-title18/html/USCODE-2012-title18-partI-chap101.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2012-title18/html...
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Nuclear related documents: https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-08-11/fbi-sought-nuclear-documents-in-search-of-trumps-home-washington-post https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2022-08-11/fbi... > U.S. federal agents were looking for documents relating to nuclear weapons when they searched former President Donald Trump's home in Florida this week, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.