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Malcolm Gladwell opposes WFH while he works from his couch for the last 20 years
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- throwawaysleep 4y ago> “feel part of something,” I feel part of many things. I feel part of my family. I feel like a pet owner. I feel part of a social group. I don't need to feel part of my work. And employees were not more engaged prior to the pandemic. People quit just as often. > but if you’re just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live? Yes! I am tapping away on a keyboard to made data flow. That's my job. Better to do it in pjs in a comfy bed than a shitty office chair.
- alecbz 4y ago> And employees were not more engaged prior to the pandemic. People quit just as often. Is that actually true about the quitting? But regardless, I don't think that really captures engagement all that well. You can be barely engaged in a job that doesn't require a lot from you and do it for years and years. And OTOH, I think engagement can sometimes cause people to quit more easily. If you want your work to be a meaningful and important part of your life, you want more from your job, and might leave readily if you're not getting all that you want. Compared to: if your job is mostly just a paycheck for you, you're not really looking to get much out of it other than that paycheck, and so are happy to keep working at the job even if it's not giving you other things, as long as nothing gets too actively bad.
- StrictDabbler 4y ago> People quit just as often. People are quitting a little more often. They are doing that because offering your employees a 3%-5% raise in a year where inflation is 9.1% is cutting their pay. Employers would like to pretend that isn't true so they're looking for any other explanation. Work-from-home, low birth rate (retroactively to 1997?), social media, entitlement... 220V, 221V, whatever it takes.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago> 220V, 221V, whatever it takes. Thanks, the Mr. Mom reference made me smile.
- planarhobbit 4y agoYeah, I don’t know. I’ve been a part of companies where CEOs used this guy’s anecdotal bullshit to push/justify their own agendas. Some even met him and boasted about it like it’s a badge of honor. Not interested and hard pass.
- alecbz 4y agoFWIW Gladwell's comments really resonate with me. I do think it's okay if you decide you don't want anything out of your job besides a paycheck, and are happy to find meaning, belonging, etc. in other parts of your life. But for my own life, I want more of those things from my job.
- nfhshy68 4y agoI think that's fine as long as you're not holding me hostage.
- alecbz 4y agoI don't think anyone's holding anyone hostage, but it is true that these kinds of things require a relatively consistent corporate culture, because it's fundamentally about how you're relating to the other people you're working with. Showing up to an empty office doesn't really do anything, the point is that the office is where the other people you're working with also are. I don't think all companies need to operate in one particular way, but getting the sense of belonging and meaning out of work some people want I think does generally require the team/org/company they're at to have that culture.
- dmitrygr 4y agothat is what the parent of your post was referring to. You want office fine? You want it nonempty? You want ME there too, by force? now you're holding me hostage
- alecbz 4y agoWhile there might be some benefits of an office just as a separate physical space for doing work, I think the vast majority of benefit people are referring to when talking about “the office” is being physically with the people they’re working with. “Force” doesn’t seem like the right model here, any more than any other aspect of requiring to work for a living counts as force. (Which you might think it does, but singling out just office/remote as the part that’s by force doesn’t seem like it makes sense.)
- darth_avocado 4y agoPandemic did something that was never possible, show that doing effective work without having to physically put yourself in a specific location was always possible. Higher productivity and record company profits show that it is totally possible. Any push towards bringing people in to work is just about preference now. The other thing that working remote has done is that it has disillusioned a lot of people. It’s harder to drink the cool aid when you can easily distance yourself. This has also meant all the corporate lies and bullshit are easily called out. And that is where the management struggles and wants to push for in person work. Employees have taken back a lot of power from the management and that is something that doesn’t sit well with them.
- sam0x17 4y agoAnd don't forget WFH vs working in the office are not two sides of a coin where you can pick and choose your adventure and it costs about the same -- working from an office has notably lower productivity (look at the non-FANG studies), costs way, way more for the employee and the employer, and has an unconsciounable carbon footprint (commuting, running AC in the offic 24/7, real estate, vehicles, etc etc).
- DiggyJohnson 4y agoI think it’s important to remember that this cannot be true of all jobs and job roles.
- wnevets 4y agoMalcolm Gladwell also thinks smoking cigarettes isn't bad for you, possibility even good for you!
- oksurewhynot 4y agoI realize this is ad hominem, but when I used to live in the west village I would see him all over the place in the middle of the day, working, but notably not in an office. It was A Thing. I would see him (frequently, he was a fixture of the Joe's on Waverly in particular) and with envy think about what a great gig he's got, that he had the freedom to work wherever he wanted. Reading about him literally tear up at the thought of all those empty desks in all those empty buildings across Manhattan is hilarious. I also happen to have it on good authority that when he did show up to an office he would arrive, and I am not making this up, in pajamas.
- pmichaud 4y agoSounds like totally normal Bay Area behavior :)
- adriand 4y agoAfter working from home since March 2020 I recently leased an office in a beautiful building that is mainly occupied by a nonprofit focused on musical education, which is delightful to be around (and I keep finding musical instruments that no one minds if I commandeer). I am loving it, and it really makes me think that the key thing about WFH is freedom. I don’t mind going to the office because no one is telling me to go to the office. I choose when and whether to go. And it’s also my own office that I’m paying for, and if I want to take a nap because I’m tired and need to rejuvenate for another round of coding, then I lock the door and sleep. I mainly got the space because my family is home for the summer, and in the first days of having it I reflected that a lot of the joy I get from it is also freedom-related, in the sense of being free from family responsibilities for the day.
- spaetzleesser 4y agoI had a similar setup for a few years in Munich. My office was 5 minutes bike ride from home, I had a nice window and met a lot of interesting people. I would be happy to be in that setup again. The thought of sitting in a cube without window or an open office fills me with dread.
- em-bee 4y agowhen our team got moved to the companies main office we were going to be put in rooms that were pretty dark and had few windows. i insisted on being in a room with a window or i'd quit. they ended up custom fitting my desk in an empty corner in the hallway which was smaller than your standard cubicle size but had a window.
- vuln 4y agoI’m having trouble thinking how to explain to my SO “yeah, I’m going to pay for my own office so I can have more freedom and reduced family responsibilities.” I might be legitimately sleeping in said office for the foreseen future. Edit: for context my only child is a teenager, and we have 2 dogs.
- ggm 4y ago
- suzzer99 4y agoJust one person's perspective - but I completely agree with the idea of wanting to feel part of something and not getting that with 100% WFH. Most of us spend a good chunk of our adult waking lives working, we might as well try to make the time as fulfilling as possible. I get energized by being on a team and building something together. WFH is just not the same for me. I know others can be fulfilled working from home, so I'm not advocating forcing anyone back into the office. But I could see a scenario where companies differentiate into pure wfh and 2 or 3 days/week in the office. I may be weird, but I would chose the latter, all other things being equal.
- tempest_ 4y ago"All other things being equal" is a massive qualification though. The reason people like WFH often begins and ends at "No commute". If your commute is roughly an hour you get 2 hours of your day back instantly. Tough sell for come into the office when the options are "feeling part of something" vs getting 2 hours of the day back.
- suzzer99 4y agoI listen to audiobooks in the car. So it doesn't feel like time wasted to me.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- dchftcs 4y agoTechnically a safety hazard.
- Swizec 4y agoNow imagine if you could get the same 2 hours of daily audiobooking and it’s a workout or getting chores done. You can do that when you aren’t stuck in a car, activities.
- 8ytecoder 4y ago
- teg4n_ 4y agoMalcolm Gladwell constantly makes up shit so I don’t see why this would be any different.
- garyrichardson 4y agoHe's an entertainer, not a scientist. His stuff is definitely entertaining and thought provoking, but he does make some "Gladwellian leaps" to gloss over some inconvenient facts to get to his ideas.
- ryantgtg 4y agoWhen I see the Gladwell hate threads, I usually conclude that I'm not quite smart enough to truly criticize him. I'm not an intense fan or anything, but I have read a book or two of his, many articles in the new yorker, and listened to some podcast eps. And, yeah, he's entertaining and thought provoking. His podcast endeared me to him since he genuinely seemed to enjoy it (I haven't listened in a couple years - not since WFH and not having to commute!).
- geodel 4y agoWell, most of the criticism is not on charitable interpretation but like nitpicking isolated, out of context statements. 10K hours part is good example where people just jump on him for making this bullshit theory about anyone becoming expert by putting mindless 10,000 hours in any skill one wanted to acquire. But reading that book I never got impression that it is some kind of magic. What I find most funny is that a lot of people who find MG fraud can easily get hoodwinked with some other person/place/technology/thing if they just happen to like it.
- tyjen 4y agoMalcolm Gladwell is the quintessential professional sophist. I remember attempting to read 'Blink' after it was recommended, and I could not force myself to finish it. His (continued) popularity taught me a deep lesson regarding humanity at the time.
- colechristensen 4y agoMalcolm Gladwell is a hack who sells information that seems profound. "Prepare to be dazzled" is on the cover of Freakonomics, and that's exactly what it is, dazzling. Dictionary definition "brightness that confuses someone's vision temporarily", and that's all that it is. Information that feels right, but is actually just engineered to evoke that feeling, distorting the truth to engage you with the content.
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- drdec 4y agoFYI the authors of Freakonomics are Stephen Levitt and Stephen Dubner, not Malcolm Gladwell.
- colechristensen 4y agoSorry, the quote is what Gladwell said about Freakonomics, printed on the cover.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y agoThe Freakonomics guys have podcasts and they are fairly good. There’s no boiling things down to a simple sound bite. Have not reads the books.
- colechristensen 4y agoThere are plenty of counterpoints to freakonomics conclusions as well. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/freakonomics-what-went-wrong https://www.americanscientist.org/article/freakonomics-what-... It's not about soundbytes but making a good story for entertainment instead of seeking truth. This happens very broadly with "popular" science kinds of media. A disturbingly high amount of what you read in them is distorted for presentation and entertainment.
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- dv_dt 4y agoOffice jobs, particularly for engineers also used to involve the requirement of showing up in a suit and a tie. Unnecessarily on-site work, I predict will go the way of the suit and tie.
- bee_rider 4y agoHmm. I want to work at work (I don't have an in-home office so I really appreciate the separation), but if Malcolm Gladwell wants me to go in... maybe I can partition the livingroom somehow...
- MisterBastahrd 4y agoMalcolm "I write from my couch" Gladwell said this? Go look at any article about this topic on LinkedIn, and you will find a bunch of wannabe influencer-managers crying about not being able to "shoot the shit over the water-cooler" anymore, and a ton of brave employees telling them that they never, ever want to go back. Sorta interesting that the millionaire class is all about being back in the office, while the rank and file general salaried employee wants no part of it. Wonder why that is? My guesses are that (a) managers want to be seen managing in order to get promotions, and (b) they actually believe that the average employee buys into this "team" bullshit while barely being able to afford day-to-day life. That's dead. They killed it. It's not coming back. Shouldn't have pocketed millions in PPP loans while lobbying against people getting a stimulus check if you didn't want people to notice the star differences between the classes. Also shouldn't have bragged to us about how management, in many of companies that have lost money for years, set aside their quarterly bonuses while still making multiples of what the average employee makes.
- cudgy 4y agoWell said. Another reason that management doesn’t care is that the main cost to employees, time (especially commuting), is not born by them.
- voz_ 4y agoMalcom Gladwell is a fraud amongst frauds. His credentials are espousing wise-sounding bullshit that appeals to a wide market audience in order to make them feel smarter. Like Jared Diamond, It's Joe Rogan / Jordan Peterson for a different audience.
- georgeecollins 4y agoIt is interesting that you mention Jared Diamond. I like his books but I know so little about the subject matter they could be completely wrong. They are pretty unusual and make a lot of broad claims, so I can see how this could be possible. Is there a book / blog / article that talks about Jared Diamond being inaccurate? Help me learn! Site a source I can read.
- voz_ 4y agoNot really definitive, but a better summary than I can write. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/what_are_some_of_the_main_anthropological/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/wha... > They are pretty unusual and make a lot of broad claims That's only the start.
- alvah 4y agoThe trick with Joe Rogan is not to take anything he says seriously, but many of the guests he has on have interesting perspectives that are often worth listening to.
- tunap 4y agoThere were some pearls from some of the most unexpected sources(Rollins, Bourdain, Honnold, etc) in the earlier years. However, more than a few were not worth listening to, too(Gladwell, Peterson, Lazar, Walker, etc). Luckily, since, Covid, Trump & Spotify, I don't wade through the mire to find any jewels, I simply just don't listen anymore.
- spicymaki 4y agoFollow the money. He is clearly pandering to his audience. The influential business types, the CEOs, the executives. He is just giving them what they want, even though it makes him hypocritical. He is not really going to change the mind of the Elon Musks, the Tim Cooks, etc. they are already aligned. His first five books were hits, but it seems his later books were not as good, so he needs to emphasize the influencer angle. I think his primary gig is speaking arrangements now. Got to keep that gravy train flowing.
- RajT88 4y agoI would say his audience is not just the influential business types, but the types of business influencers who don't have time to read those nerdy book things, so they buy the audio cliffnotes version of such books from Skymall and just listen to the book summaries on the plane.
- gnicholas 4y agoDo CEOs on the level of Tim Cook pay any attention to Malcom Gladwell? I don’t know anyone remotely at that level who takes his work seriously.
- WheelsAtLarge 4y agoSeparating work from your home life is important. Collaborating with co-workers is important. Not having to do a long commute is important. Not having to go to the office because your family needs you at home is important. And on and on... Ultimately, we will find that both sides have good points. I'm one that believes that there needs to be a balance where an individual can decide how much work will be done at home while going to the office as needed or desired. 100% at home or 100% at work is not healthy. We need both. What the pandemic has shown is that many of us don't have to be in the office 100% to be productive. Let's find a balance.
- madrox 4y agoThe year before the pandemic I worked at a company that attracted a lot of younger, hipper people. It was crazy to me just how many people hung out at the office on a Friday night. Now that I'm 40, that life just isn't for me. I know what I'm a part of, and I don't need to be in an office to delude me into thinking my job is changing the world. Maybe Gladwell is speaking to those 20-somethings and not to me, but he just sounds like a con man.
- flappyeagle 4y agoYour hanging out when you were 20 cemented relationships that you benefit from later in your career. I see this all the time — the 40 year-olds make the transition to remote work just fine and thrive. The 20-somethings become isolated and languish.
- madrox 4y agoThat's a fair assessment
- dqpb 4y ago> “…but if you’re just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live?” he questioned. “Don’t you want to feel part of something?” Wow Malcolm, good job using your imagination! Here’s some paper and crayons, can you draw a picture of it?
- jdauriemma 4y agoAs a person who has successfully worked from home for six years alternating between management and software engineering, this brand of nonsense and hypocrisy really bugs me. I take pride in my hard work, empower my team and yes, I feel “a part of something” while doing my job remotely. Some people desire an office environment. That’s great! Don’t impose that preference on those of us whose effectiveness does not require it. There’s no hard data that conclusively proves one way is better than the other. If Gladwell cares so much about my showing up to an office, I invite him to pick my kids up from preschool when there’s a COVID closure and open the door when my oldest gets home from school.
- lamontcg 4y agoAnd there's a ton of hard data showing that the executive-favored open office plans massively distract tech workers and hinder productivity, yet a decade later they keep on building them.
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- User23 4y agoIt’s not surprising for a parasite to oppose parasitism, for obvious reasons. The real punchline is that tech wfh isn’t particularly parasitical, compared to whatever you want to call what Gladwell does.
- jccalhoun 4y agoI see Gladwell's comments as being just the latest in a line of people proclaiming the death of the public sphere. Staring with Ray Oldenburg's Third Place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place and more recently Putnam's Bowling Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone While I do think there is something to be said for face to face interactions, valorizing work is just making work your life instead of the thing that makes life possible.
- coffeefirst 4y agoYes, if taking away the part of your day where you go and sit at a long desk table with headphones on in any way feels like "reducing your life," there's a bigger problem. We could definitely use a major civic revival and more backyard barbecues. We could do without sitting in conference rooms.
- ekianjo 4y agoDoes anyone even care what Gladwell says these days? He's been exposed as a hack several times already.
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- greymalik 4y agoI actually saw him working at a café this week!
- carabiner 4y agoWhat compels him to spout this hypocrisy? Is this some corporate psy-op that has captured him? How does Gladwell stand to benefit by saying this, rather than saying "WFH is great" which appears to be his true opinion?
- dmitrygr 4y agoHe makes a lot of money on the corporate lecture circuit. It is probably a lot easier to get invited to talk for $$$$$ if you say shit that the decision-makers want to hear.
- psi75 4y agoHe isn't wrong, insofar as when you start WFH, the pretense that work is anything other than an involuntary trade of time (in too large a quantity) for money (in to small an amount) people do because they have no other choice drops away. > “I know it’s a hassle to come into the office, but if you’re just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live?” he questioned. “Don’t you want to feel part of something?” Doing a braindead typical corporate job from home, in one's pajamas, is an alienating experience. The issue is that, above a certain level of intelligence and awareness, having to go in and do that job on-site is even more alienating. I don't "feel part of something" in corporate work. I haven't since my 20s, when a series of life circumstances forced me to figure reality out very quick. At the same time, the few jobs that are intrinsically rewarding and useful do not become less rewarding and useful . To keep hoi polloi motivated, and to keep them overestimating their tiny actual chance (less than 1%, in many circumstances, because it's typically something one is born into) of being invited into the executive circle so they actually do the work (which they are just smart enough to do, but hopefully not smart enough to see the pointlessness of), the office is pretty much necessary. Otherwise, it becomes just too clear, even to people of sub-mediocre apperception, that "work" isn't really about Starbucks at 11:00 and town halls at 4:00, but that it is merely the trade of an intensely valuable and personal commodity--one's time--for the artificially scarce one called "money" (existing largely, in bulk, to measure the asymmetric state services called "property rights") that (a) is owned in the greatest amounts by the literal worst people in the world, but (b) is absolutely necessary if one wishes access to the means of survival.
- throwaway787544 4y agoMalcolm Gladwell: that guy who writes about his own thoughts and re-words them as if they are factual and apply to everyone.
- ajsnigrutin 4y agoHonestly, working from home is kinda shitty, because you lose all the 'watercooler talk', all the informal meets with coworkers, lunches etc., and other opportunities to share ideas and get feedback, that you usually don't have over zoom/teams/... On the other hand, you can do this even if you work from the office once per week or even once per two weeks, so this might be the solution.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- bitexploder 4y agoI have worked from home for 18 years now. Don’t ever see myself in an office other than for visits and specific meetings ever again. We still do in person events and I have many long standing friendships and relationships with prior colleagues. Though I did travel to my clients officers for a few years in there, it is different and would not support Gladwell’s argument anyhow because it was always different offices and people.
- aaron695 4y ago
- fnordpiglet 4y agoI’m sick of people explaining why people are wrong for preferring what they prefer.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoYeah, it's very childish.
- flappyeagle 4y agoFor a lot of people, I would say most people, working from home has short term benefits and is long-term career-limiting. People who are deep into their careers with built-out networks and contacts have no problem with the transition. But for others, it will play out over the next 5 years when they find that they are falling behind. The pendulum will swing the other way and having an office will be seen as a beneficial perk and career booster.
- cat_plus_plus 4y agoWhat kind of team is Malcolm Gladwell part of? A solitary writer is one thing, a team of 40 people where some are fresh grads who need hands on mentoring and some need quick emotional feedback on their ideas is another. Malcolm is not automatically a hypocrite by suggesting most people work in different circumstances from himself.
- cableshaft 4y ago> Malcolm is not automatically a hypocrite by suggesting most people work in different circumstances from himself. Perhaps not, but he also doesn't speak from a position of authority or experience, then, and maybe shouldn't act as such. If asked, saying something like "I can't really say one way or another, I've been writing on my own for years, not as part of a team" would have been better than what he chose to say instead.
- ggm 4y agoGladwell is (in my opinion) like Peterson and Kurzeweil: somebody it is probably better to ignore, for your own mental health. If you like him, fine. If not, also fine. But no matter what, please don't take him seriously as a source of guidance for what is true, and beautiful in the world.
- quickthrower2 4y ago> “I know it’s a hassle to come into the office, but if you’re just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live?” he questioned. “Don’t you want to feel part of something?” 1. It is also a hassle being in the office. I can focus much better at home. Unless the office wants to give everyone their own little sound-proof and well naturally lit room. No one does that though. It would cost at least 2% of the developers salary. 2. I can feel anything I want. I can feel part of something from a distance. We have great tools to communicate. I appreciate that if you start at a company it would be nice to physically meet up, and it is probably good to get together occasionally. But every day in the office is not necessary.
- throwfh80h82 4y agoI don't care if people wanna WFH. Not for me but more power to them. However, I know several people with 2 full time jobs now. I believe this "drop in turnover" is largely because if you don't like your job you can just stop working and keep collecting a paycheck and nobody will know about it.
- nmstoker 4y agoThis is purely anecdotal, but the eagerness people have in telling other people how they should work seems to be something of a "tell" regarding their personalities. It gives away that secretly (or not so secretly) they get off on making others do what they want and it's all the more disturbing as it's dressed up as being vital for success or some other questionable unsubstantiated justification when really it's just about pushing people around. It's quite a surprise to hear Gladwell's hypocrisy as he usually comes across as far more considered but i maybe with time he's slipping into bad habits.
- steele 4y agoCorporate hit piece
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- jnash 4y agoWho cares what Malcolm Gladwell thinks? @dang is this really worthy of HN? There is nothing new here. Just the same old WFH discussion that we have had so many times on HN.
- cudgy 4y agoWhy not just skip the article and definitely not comment on it? Hypocrisy displayed by a any major figure should be called out for accountability reasons at the least. While it is true that this discussion has been hashed out many times, it is curious to see how the sentiment has shifted even more in favor of work from home, especially given that many of the commenters have now actually worked from home due to the pandemic. Frankly, the comments are now much more insightful and informative than they were say a year or two ago.
- voisin 4y agoFor every industry: Hot job market = High relative bargaining power among employees = more flexibility in working conditions (a perk like any other). Once the job market turns and jobs are scarce relative to workers, most people will be back in the office or starve.
- kelnos 4y ago> “I know it’s a hassle to come into the office, but if you’re just sitting in your pajamas in your bedroom, is that the work life you want to live?” he questioned. Yes! That sounds awesome, and is in fact what I did during COVID. Well, minus the bedroom part; I at least went downstairs to the couch. > “Don’t you want to feel part of something?” Grossssss. I don't need to be brainwashed into being a worker bee for someone else's "vision". I don't need to get emotionally involved with my employer. I'll just do the job and take my paycheck, thank you very much.
- hazmazlaz 4y agoMalcom Gladwell's opinions on this matter can be safely discarded.
- guywithahat 4y agoBill Gates wants you to reduce emissions as he flies in his private jet The Pfizer CEO wanted you to get vaccinated while he waited until he was forced to These people aren't telling you what they do, they're telling you what they think will be necessary for the future. Office work is a lot more productive, it better integrates employees into the company culture, and companies that implement WFH often struggle as a result of it