6 ms·

Don't you just... commit fraud instead of "ending the trial"? Just because they can't charge your credit card doesn't mean you don't still own the company money

Don't you just... commit fraud instead of "ending the trial"? Just because they can't charge your credit card doesn't mean you don't still own the company money, right? Genuine question, I don't know how it works with credit cards. But you can't "cancel a contract" by voiding a direct debit authorization (where you allow a company to charge your bank account directly) and expect everything to be fine, so I would assume that also applies to credit cards?

wyldfire 4y ago
It doesn't sound like fraud if an opt-out service renewal stops being opt-out (or if you effectively opt-out using an agent).
Rebelgecko 4y ago
If the payment doesn't go through, the company should just stop providing the service. eg the gym cancels your membership
- tcoff91 4y ago
  I've definitely heard of times where gyms continue to attempt to charge you, claim that you owe them that money, and then send you to collections after months of failed payments.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    This is definitely the case in Germany and Austria. You can't just stop paying your subscription and consider this a successful cancellation thinking everything goes away and sorts itself out naturally. They'll send the collection agency after you for the missed payments till the end of the contractual agreement, which for most gyms is 3 to 12 months! Gym chains here are absolutely predatory. The same goes for any other kind of subscription too like, telcos, etc.
  - wccrawford 4y ago
    Microsoft used to do it for XBox subscriptions as well. I don't know if they still do, but I definitely got caught on it. They ended up forgiving that bit and letting me use my account again without paying for service I never used, but they initially told me I had to pay it before I could use my account again.
- eli 4y ago
  Gyms are terrible and often do sneaky things to take your money. But if you agree to a one year contract then you shouldn't be able to get out of it by just not paying.
  - buildbot 4y ago
    This gets really close to a straight up loan in my book, which has other implications that the gyms are not thinking of. With a physical good it is quite clear you get the thing and possibly have some contract to pay it back over time, which is a loan. If a gym is selling you a physical one year membership, billed monthly, how is that not a loan? Are they registered lending companies?
vorpalhex 4y ago
No this is a lose for the auto-renewing model since you pay ahead for the term typically instead of in-arrears. Which is good in my book. Being forced into auto-renewing subscriptions is nonsense and takes advantage of consumers.
humanistbot 4y ago
It depends on how the contract is written, and nobody reads the T&Cs, so they are probably written to the benefit of the merchant. If you sign a contract that says you will pay $X for service Y each month until canceled, then you are still legally liable to pay that until you cancel as stated in the contract.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  unless this part of contract is void due to violation of consumer rights (for example unreasonable way to cancel contract is or should be legally void)
matkoniecz 4y ago
In this case I would - cancel subscription using the same method I used to sign up (if it is broken - that is not my problem) - cease providing them money I would consider it as preventing fraud by scammers that make harder to cancel subscription than it was to create it.
- schroeding 4y ago
  Agreed, but you have "cancel subscription" as the first action. The card provider does not, they just say "end free trials automatically with auto-expiring virtual cards" and "cancel subscription payments in one click", without having to cancel the actual subscription. Doing both is fine (and I do the same), but only removing the payment method does not invalidate the subscription contract, right?
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    Not sure. There is "constructive dismissal" in the employment law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal ) I would not assume it to be invalid form of terminating subscription, I would also not assume that it is valid if someone has not even tried official unsubscription method.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
The premise is you've signed up for a service that advertises zero-risk cancellation after a trial period. On attempting to cancel - by stopping use of the service, by trying to cancel on the website, by emailing them, by calling them during your work hours and sitting on hold for an hour of my time that's worth more than the entire value I got out of the service, and recording the 2 minute interaction with the 'customer service' agent, by calling again the next month after they still didn't cancel, by escalating to a supervisor and recording that interaction, and getting billed again - it often turns out that it's impossible for mere mortals to cancel. In that case, cancelling by changing your credit card number is reasonable. Yes, there's a small chance they'll chase you to collections and attempt to harm your credit score if you do actually owe something (if they shipped you something physical, for example), but often they just drop it.
- shuntress 4y ago
  What you are describing is the reason that "reasonable judgement" is a part of basically every law. Also the reason judges and the judiciary branch are so important.

wyldfire 4y ago

It doesn't sound like fraud if an opt-out service renewal stops being opt-out (or if you effectively opt-out using an agent).

Rebelgecko 4y ago

If the payment doesn't go through, the company should just stop providing the service. eg the gym cancels your membership

tcoff91 4y ago
I've definitely heard of times where gyms continue to attempt to charge you, claim that you owe them that money, and then send you to collections after months of failed payments.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  This is definitely the case in Germany and Austria. You can't just stop paying your subscription and consider this a successful cancellation thinking everything goes away and sorts itself out naturally. They'll send the collection agency after you for the missed payments till the end of the contractual agreement, which for most gyms is 3 to 12 months! Gym chains here are absolutely predatory. The same goes for any other kind of subscription too like, telcos, etc.
- wccrawford 4y ago
  Microsoft used to do it for XBox subscriptions as well. I don't know if they still do, but I definitely got caught on it. They ended up forgiving that bit and letting me use my account again without paying for service I never used, but they initially told me I had to pay it before I could use my account again.
eli 4y ago
Gyms are terrible and often do sneaky things to take your money. But if you agree to a one year contract then you shouldn't be able to get out of it by just not paying.
- buildbot 4y ago
  This gets really close to a straight up loan in my book, which has other implications that the gyms are not thinking of. With a physical good it is quite clear you get the thing and possibly have some contract to pay it back over time, which is a loan. If a gym is selling you a physical one year membership, billed monthly, how is that not a loan? Are they registered lending companies?

vorpalhex 4y ago

No this is a lose for the auto-renewing model since you pay ahead for the term typically instead of in-arrears. Which is good in my book. Being forced into auto-renewing subscriptions is nonsense and takes advantage of consumers.

humanistbot 4y ago

It depends on how the contract is written, and nobody reads the T&Cs, so they are probably written to the benefit of the merchant. If you sign a contract that says you will pay $X for service Y each month until canceled, then you are still legally liable to pay that until you cancel as stated in the contract.

matkoniecz 4y ago
unless this part of contract is void due to violation of consumer rights (for example unreasonable way to cancel contract is or should be legally void)

matkoniecz 4y ago

In this case I would - cancel subscription using the same method I used to sign up (if it is broken - that is not my problem) - cease providing them money I would consider it as preventing fraud by scammers that make harder to cancel subscription than it was to create it.

schroeding 4y ago
Agreed, but you have "cancel subscription" as the first action. The card provider does not, they just say "end free trials automatically with auto-expiring virtual cards" and "cancel subscription payments in one click", without having to cancel the actual subscription. Doing both is fine (and I do the same), but only removing the payment method does not invalidate the subscription contract, right?
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  Not sure. There is "constructive dismissal" in the employment law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal ) I would not assume it to be invalid form of terminating subscription, I would also not assume that it is valid if someone has not even tried official unsubscription method.

LeifCarrotson 4y ago

The premise is you've signed up for a service that advertises zero-risk cancellation after a trial period. On attempting to cancel - by stopping use of the service, by trying to cancel on the website, by emailing them, by calling them during your work hours and sitting on hold for an hour of my time that's worth more than the entire value I got out of the service, and recording the 2 minute interaction with the 'customer service' agent, by calling again the next month after they still didn't cancel, by escalating to a supervisor and recording that interaction, and getting billed again - it often turns out that it's impossible for mere mortals to cancel. In that case, cancelling by changing your credit card number is reasonable. Yes, there's a small chance they'll chase you to collections and attempt to harm your credit score if you do actually owe something (if they shipped you something physical, for example), but often they just drop it.

shuntress 4y ago
What you are describing is the reason that "reasonable judgement" is a part of basically every law. Also the reason judges and the judiciary branch are so important.