6 ms·

Firefox Loses Users and Websites

46 points by mikece 4y ago

technerder 4y ago
I sadly don't think anything will change unless upper management decides to stop trying to kill Firefox.
- super_throwaway 4y ago
  They aren’t trying, they can’t afford to keep it alive. No one wants to work somewhere like that.
- xcambar 4y ago
  As long as Google is the hand that feeds Mozilla, don't expect Mozilla to try anything too rebellious.
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    All they had to do was keep making a decent browser. They engaged in what I can only describe as deliberate and systematic sabotage of the brand and any competitive advantages they might have had. That being said, I'm not sure the outcome could have been averted. Like you said, since Google was the hand that fed them and Google has their own browser, Mozilla could have only slowed down the inevitable, not prevented it.
lysergia 4y ago
Yeah but many opt out of telemetry so the amount of users would be substantially higher. Also I can just spoof my useragent to Chrome to use certain sites that require chrome-only users.
cubix4u 4y ago
I'm just worried that we are losing another browser engine.
- pipeline_peak 4y ago
  The writing’s on the wall. Browser dominance is too niche of a problem for the industry to care about.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    The industry doesn't care about anything except for executive personnel profit. If you want caring, you need to get it outside of the industry.
    - pdimitar 4y ago
      I and many others agree. But the pesky problem of needing to pay the people who want to make a difference sadly still persists. I'd work on idealistic causes starting tomorrow if I didn't live in a world that mandates me to spend most of my energy on commercial work just so I can eat and have where to sleep.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        Oh, the idea of my comment is to put it clearly and unambiguously that the problem is open, and the most commonly discussed "solutions" are complete bullshit, so we need to find a way to solve it. And we won't find any solution within the main view of letting the market solve it. The market doesn't solve this kind of problem.
  - nicolaslem 4y ago
    I never understood why we don't have more indie browsers. Individual developers love implementing their own take on anything: from the most simple projects to crazy ones like booting Linux from JavaScript or entire operating systems. Why are those talented individuals not implementing their own browsers?
meowfly 4y ago
> The advice, or rather the plea, from both Hacker News and Reddit is not to abandon Firefox - but on the other hand there is also mounting evidence that MBNA isn't the only company writing Firefox off. I don't know about this. Almost every thread about Firefox has someone recommending Brave. Firefox is solving a problem users don't know they will miss until it's gone: browser consolidation. The problems that needs solving now are privacy related and Mozilla's absolutely poor management of Firefox on this front causes others to look for other solutions. Firefox should be the most privacy centric browser available. However it doesn't seem like management gets the memo. For example, not too far in the past, they made news for putting ads in the search bar and providing a config option (in about:config) to even allow personalization. This kind of thing just destroys the brand and trust with users. If someone asked me to rank browsers based on privacy, I don't think I could give you a rank order, other than the fact that Chrome (and I'm assuming IE) would be near the bottom.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Firefox should be the most privacy centric browser available. They could also be the most power-user browser available. Unfortunately, it seems like they've gotten absolutely high off of telemetry, and seem like they're just itching to cut features and break things. They need to stop thinking like they're some lowest-common-denominator browser. That's Chrome, and nothing is going to change that in the short or medium term.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Firefox is solving a problem users don't know they will miss until it's gone: browser consolidation. This is what kept me using Firefox long past the point where it became unpleasant to use. Last year, I finally gave up and switched to Brave. I don't love Brave, but there isn't a lot of viable options anymore. I tried sticking with Firefox, I really did. I'd been using Firefox from way back in day 1. But, in the end, it just stopped being a good browser for me and all of the changes Mozilla made just kept making it worse.
- doopy1 4y ago
  Why is browser consolidation such a big problem? If the current market leader starts to fall behind, then whoever does it better will gain adoption. Isn't this how Chrome grew a following?
pdimitar 4y ago
Firefox is doomed, which is a shame. I'll use its forks on Linux for as long as I can however.
- fsflover 4y ago
  So you are decreasing the Firefox share while benefiting from it.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Yes, I am obviously a monster for using Firefox everywhere I can. Indeed.
  - smegsicle 4y ago
    tell that to the mozilla execs
NoraCodes 4y ago
I really don't understand the mentality of engineers - or businesspeople! - who block certain browsers. Not supporting a browser with low marketshare, while sad, is at least understandable, but going out of your way to prevent people from using your website who otherwise might have had a perfectly good experience is ridiculous. At worst, just put a banner at the top that says "your browser is not supported, if the site looks broken try Chrome."
- idoubtit 4y ago
  There's an obvious reason: preventing bugs. If I were to make a bank transfer, and the process hanged in the final step because of an incompatible browser, I'd be furious, even if I had been warned about the risk using FF. In the worse case, I could be wondering if I need to repeat the operation with Chrome, or if the failure occurred after the transfer and repeating would duplicate... If they don't test their website with FF, there's a higher risk of bugs. A FF user might not even realize that they're hindered by bugs: the site could be much slower, or some blocks would not refresh, or some transactions fail silently. If it doesn't clearly look broken, and just behaves badly, the user will probably blame the website instead of switching to a Chromium-based browser.
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    Not every website is a banking website.
    - verdverm 4y ago
      Not every developer has time to deal with Firefox and other fringe browsers' differences
      - brokenmachine 4y ago
        Yes, but it hardly matters for a page of reddit memes. I don't want to live in a world where google is in complete control of the web.
bitlax 4y ago
Look, I know we won't agree that booting the guy who created JavaScript for political reasons had anything to do with the further decline of Firefox, but can we at least agree that your best business strategy after that decision isn't going to be marketing yourselves as some sort of privacy crusaders?
saidinesh5 4y ago
As of now the two things keeping me stuck to Firefox is: * uBlock Origin (Chrome based browsers don't seem to block ads as good as Firefox, especially on mobile) * Treestyle Tab But Firefox is falling way behind when it comes to rendering my bank websites properly, supporting little standards I use like WebSerial/WebUSB...
- tehbeard 4y ago
  > ...WebSerial/WebUSB... I've given up on Apple about-facing and driving hard on PWA support with a privacy focus (e.g. allowing push notifications in PWAs only, requiring the apple "dev tax" be paid to get push keys that are tied to such a site so it's used properly etc and doing that to other "problematic" PWA APIs as well). And I don't see Firefox picking that up either; their management seems content to funnel money into their own pockets with bonuses and shutter projects like Servo or MDN to do so..
  - saidinesh5 4y ago
    Yeah with Apple - I can still see that as expected, but the way Firefox has been going these last few years.. has been truly disappointing. I mean they'd have created half these features themselves during their Firefox OS days... I am beginning to see why Brave adopted Blink instead of Gecko.
plaguepilled 4y ago
The Firefox conversation is over explained. There are many subtleties, but the actionable takeaway is we need to, as users, demand management that places privacy and security above profit.

46 points by mikece 4y ago

technerder 4y ago

I sadly don't think anything will change unless upper management decides to stop trying to kill Firefox.

super_throwaway 4y ago
They aren’t trying, they can’t afford to keep it alive. No one wants to work somewhere like that.
xcambar 4y ago
As long as Google is the hand that feeds Mozilla, don't expect Mozilla to try anything too rebellious.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  All they had to do was keep making a decent browser. They engaged in what I can only describe as deliberate and systematic sabotage of the brand and any competitive advantages they might have had. That being said, I'm not sure the outcome could have been averted. Like you said, since Google was the hand that fed them and Google has their own browser, Mozilla could have only slowed down the inevitable, not prevented it.

lysergia 4y ago

Yeah but many opt out of telemetry so the amount of users would be substantially higher. Also I can just spoof my useragent to Chrome to use certain sites that require chrome-only users.

cubix4u 4y ago

I'm just worried that we are losing another browser engine.

pipeline_peak 4y ago
The writing’s on the wall. Browser dominance is too niche of a problem for the industry to care about.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  The industry doesn't care about anything except for executive personnel profit. If you want caring, you need to get it outside of the industry.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    I and many others agree. But the pesky problem of needing to pay the people who want to make a difference sadly still persists. I'd work on idealistic causes starting tomorrow if I didn't live in a world that mandates me to spend most of my energy on commercial work just so I can eat and have where to sleep.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Oh, the idea of my comment is to put it clearly and unambiguously that the problem is open, and the most commonly discussed "solutions" are complete bullshit, so we need to find a way to solve it. And we won't find any solution within the main view of letting the market solve it. The market doesn't solve this kind of problem.
- nicolaslem 4y ago
  I never understood why we don't have more indie browsers. Individual developers love implementing their own take on anything: from the most simple projects to crazy ones like booting Linux from JavaScript or entire operating systems. Why are those talented individuals not implementing their own browsers?

meowfly 4y ago

> The advice, or rather the plea, from both Hacker News and Reddit is not to abandon Firefox - but on the other hand there is also mounting evidence that MBNA isn't the only company writing Firefox off. I don't know about this. Almost every thread about Firefox has someone recommending Brave. Firefox is solving a problem users don't know they will miss until it's gone: browser consolidation. The problems that needs solving now are privacy related and Mozilla's absolutely poor management of Firefox on this front causes others to look for other solutions. Firefox should be the most privacy centric browser available. However it doesn't seem like management gets the memo. For example, not too far in the past, they made news for putting ads in the search bar and providing a config option (in about:config) to even allow personalization. This kind of thing just destroys the brand and trust with users. If someone asked me to rank browsers based on privacy, I don't think I could give you a rank order, other than the fact that Chrome (and I'm assuming IE) would be near the bottom.

tablespoon 4y ago
> Firefox should be the most privacy centric browser available. They could also be the most power-user browser available. Unfortunately, it seems like they've gotten absolutely high off of telemetry, and seem like they're just itching to cut features and break things. They need to stop thinking like they're some lowest-common-denominator browser. That's Chrome, and nothing is going to change that in the short or medium term.
JohnFen 4y ago
> Firefox is solving a problem users don't know they will miss until it's gone: browser consolidation. This is what kept me using Firefox long past the point where it became unpleasant to use. Last year, I finally gave up and switched to Brave. I don't love Brave, but there isn't a lot of viable options anymore. I tried sticking with Firefox, I really did. I'd been using Firefox from way back in day 1. But, in the end, it just stopped being a good browser for me and all of the changes Mozilla made just kept making it worse.
doopy1 4y ago
Why is browser consolidation such a big problem? If the current market leader starts to fall behind, then whoever does it better will gain adoption. Isn't this how Chrome grew a following?

pdimitar 4y ago

Firefox is doomed, which is a shame. I'll use its forks on Linux for as long as I can however.

fsflover 4y ago
So you are decreasing the Firefox share while benefiting from it.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Yes, I am obviously a monster for using Firefox everywhere I can. Indeed.
- smegsicle 4y ago
  tell that to the mozilla execs

NoraCodes 4y ago

I really don't understand the mentality of engineers - or businesspeople! - who block certain browsers. Not supporting a browser with low marketshare, while sad, is at least understandable, but going out of your way to prevent people from using your website who otherwise might have had a perfectly good experience is ridiculous. At worst, just put a banner at the top that says "your browser is not supported, if the site looks broken try Chrome."

idoubtit 4y ago
There's an obvious reason: preventing bugs. If I were to make a bank transfer, and the process hanged in the final step because of an incompatible browser, I'd be furious, even if I had been warned about the risk using FF. In the worse case, I could be wondering if I need to repeat the operation with Chrome, or if the failure occurred after the transfer and repeating would duplicate... If they don't test their website with FF, there's a higher risk of bugs. A FF user might not even realize that they're hindered by bugs: the site could be much slower, or some blocks would not refresh, or some transactions fail silently. If it doesn't clearly look broken, and just behaves badly, the user will probably blame the website instead of switching to a Chromium-based browser.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  Not every website is a banking website.
  - verdverm 4y ago
    Not every developer has time to deal with Firefox and other fringe browsers' differences
    - brokenmachine 4y ago
      Yes, but it hardly matters for a page of reddit memes. I don't want to live in a world where google is in complete control of the web.

bitlax 4y ago

Look, I know we won't agree that booting the guy who created JavaScript for political reasons had anything to do with the further decline of Firefox, but can we at least agree that your best business strategy after that decision isn't going to be marketing yourselves as some sort of privacy crusaders?

saidinesh5 4y ago

As of now the two things keeping me stuck to Firefox is: * uBlock Origin (Chrome based browsers don't seem to block ads as good as Firefox, especially on mobile) * Treestyle Tab But Firefox is falling way behind when it comes to rendering my bank websites properly, supporting little standards I use like WebSerial/WebUSB...

tehbeard 4y ago
> ...WebSerial/WebUSB... I've given up on Apple about-facing and driving hard on PWA support with a privacy focus (e.g. allowing push notifications in PWAs only, requiring the apple "dev tax" be paid to get push keys that are tied to such a site so it's used properly etc and doing that to other "problematic" PWA APIs as well). And I don't see Firefox picking that up either; their management seems content to funnel money into their own pockets with bonuses and shutter projects like Servo or MDN to do so..
- saidinesh5 4y ago
  Yeah with Apple - I can still see that as expected, but the way Firefox has been going these last few years.. has been truly disappointing. I mean they'd have created half these features themselves during their Firefox OS days... I am beginning to see why Brave adopted Blink instead of Gecko.

plaguepilled 4y ago

The Firefox conversation is over explained. There are many subtleties, but the actionable takeaway is we need to, as users, demand management that places privacy and security above profit.