5 ms·

I frequently see efforts that use cheap, popular, globally available off the shelf hardware for more than it was meant to. I love that and it really showcases t

I frequently see efforts that use cheap, popular, globally available off the shelf hardware for more than it was meant to. I love that and it really showcases the benefits of hackable, modifiable things. Someone could make this as an argument of user-serviceable, accessible hardware instead of sealed units that only the manufacturer can open. Also, do we need to talk about "warranty void if seal broken" stickers?

dylan604 4y ago
I'm all for that as well, except I have become slightly more sympathetic to the warranty aspect. Yes, we absolutely need "void if seal broken". I would love for something to be released that was fully intended to allow tinkering, but once you do so, you get no warranty service as there's no way to know what mods were done. I think that's totally acceptable
- notsapiensatall 4y ago
  That approach has many perverse incentives. Fortunately, we've already figured this one out: manufacturers should only be able to disavow their warranties if they can prove that a modification caused the need for a repair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty...
  - kbenson 4y ago
    Which, maybe an appropriately placed sticker can help determine. Note I said help. Whether the sticker is enforceable or not, it's an easy way for the manufacturer to know whether the user even accessed internals that aren't required for normal operation, streamlining some warranty cases. TL;DR - invalidating because of sticker bad, using present sticker to fast track warranty cases good.
    - karamanolev 4y ago
      Invalidating because of sticker - bad. So sticker saying so is also bad. OK if sticker says "Breaking seal at own responsibility" might be a measurable improvement. Let's not pretend we haven't seen 1001 cases of "You've upgraded your laptop's RAM, so the laptop hinges that we see break in thousands of laptops is your own fault" (Dell).
      - kbenson 4y ago
        Sure, I kind of assumed that when used appropriately in this way it would say something appropriate that wasn't untrue as well, such as "warranty implications if broken", which them people might at least be interested in looking up what those implications are (presumably longer turnaround time as it needs more investigation).
- cwillu 4y ago
  Invalidating a warranty based on such seals is in fact illegal: Generally, tie-in sales provisions aren’t allowed. These are provisions that state or imply that a consumer must buy or use an item or service from a particular company to keep their warranty coverage. Here are some examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions. “To keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.” “This limited warranty shall not apply if the warranty seal has been broken, removed, erased, defaced, altered, or is otherwise illegible,” where a device cannot be repaired without such effects. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/businesspers...
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    Yes, I'm aware of its illegality and considered mentioning it, but I thought it wouldn't be worth it. Yet, here we are.
maicro 4y ago
~19 years ago my first real introduction to software/hardware/firmware hacking and electronics/soldering was turning the digital, one-time use "disposable" cameras that CVS etc. sold, into reusable digital cameras. Plenty of issues along the way and drawbacks with the final product, but for the time it was one of the cheapest digital cameras you could get (because the price was heavily subsidized on the fact that you would be returning it to develop the pictures, at which point it could be cleared and sold again). That definitely helped put me on the tinkering path I'm on now.
- dmix 4y ago
  What else have you built since?
madeofpalk 4y ago
> Someone could make this as an argument of user-serviceable I think the opposite, really. Selling overprovisioned hardware, with differentiation between models happening in software happens because they devices are locked down and aren't user serviceable or intended to be modified. Users upgrading cheaper, over-provisioned, possibly loss-leading hardware to get more expensive functionality means no one would buy the more expensive model, which would drive up the cost of the cheaper one.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  > Users upgrading cheaper, over-provisioned, possibly loss-leading hardware to get more expensive functionality means no one would buy the more expensive model, which would drive up the cost of the cheaper one. No, not really. If you think tinkering people who would open up their IKEA Symfonisk has a nontrivial overlap with Sonos customers, you're in for a surprise. Richer "nice off-the-shelf device" people will stay that way, DIY with an IKEA speaker people will also stay that way. What it does is it really encourages tinkering, thinking and innovation in the small fraction of people who would do that. It breeds better engineers, more engaged teenagers, a more flexible society. So really - all the positives and almost none of the negatives.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Gone are the days when a $100 processor could go toe to toe with a $360 processor. I'd say that's due to the fact that overclocking is gone and the main differentiation is number of cores, which can't be unlocked these days.
  - bigyikes 4y ago
    > Richer "nice off-the-shelf device" people will stay that way, DIY with an IKEA speaker people will also stay that way. HEY! I was literally just researching wireless speakers this week, and considering Sonos. Seeing this post convinced me not to buy Sonos hardware. There’s probably dozens of us out there :)

dylan604 4y ago

I'm all for that as well, except I have become slightly more sympathetic to the warranty aspect. Yes, we absolutely need "void if seal broken". I would love for something to be released that was fully intended to allow tinkering, but once you do so, you get no warranty service as there's no way to know what mods were done. I think that's totally acceptable

notsapiensatall 4y ago
That approach has many perverse incentives. Fortunately, we've already figured this one out: manufacturers should only be able to disavow their warranties if they can prove that a modification caused the need for a repair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty...
- kbenson 4y ago
  Which, maybe an appropriately placed sticker can help determine. Note I said help. Whether the sticker is enforceable or not, it's an easy way for the manufacturer to know whether the user even accessed internals that aren't required for normal operation, streamlining some warranty cases. TL;DR - invalidating because of sticker bad, using present sticker to fast track warranty cases good.
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    Invalidating because of sticker - bad. So sticker saying so is also bad. OK if sticker says "Breaking seal at own responsibility" might be a measurable improvement. Let's not pretend we haven't seen 1001 cases of "You've upgraded your laptop's RAM, so the laptop hinges that we see break in thousands of laptops is your own fault" (Dell).
    - kbenson 4y ago
      Sure, I kind of assumed that when used appropriately in this way it would say something appropriate that wasn't untrue as well, such as "warranty implications if broken", which them people might at least be interested in looking up what those implications are (presumably longer turnaround time as it needs more investigation).
cwillu 4y ago
Invalidating a warranty based on such seals is in fact illegal: Generally, tie-in sales provisions aren’t allowed. These are provisions that state or imply that a consumer must buy or use an item or service from a particular company to keep their warranty coverage. Here are some examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions. “To keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.” “This limited warranty shall not apply if the warranty seal has been broken, removed, erased, defaced, altered, or is otherwise illegible,” where a device cannot be repaired without such effects. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/businesspers...
- karamanolev 4y ago
  Yes, I'm aware of its illegality and considered mentioning it, but I thought it wouldn't be worth it. Yet, here we are.

maicro 4y ago

~19 years ago my first real introduction to software/hardware/firmware hacking and electronics/soldering was turning the digital, one-time use "disposable" cameras that CVS etc. sold, into reusable digital cameras. Plenty of issues along the way and drawbacks with the final product, but for the time it was one of the cheapest digital cameras you could get (because the price was heavily subsidized on the fact that you would be returning it to develop the pictures, at which point it could be cleared and sold again). That definitely helped put me on the tinkering path I'm on now.

dmix 4y ago
What else have you built since?

madeofpalk 4y ago

> Someone could make this as an argument of user-serviceable I think the opposite, really. Selling overprovisioned hardware, with differentiation between models happening in software happens because they devices are locked down and aren't user serviceable or intended to be modified. Users upgrading cheaper, over-provisioned, possibly loss-leading hardware to get more expensive functionality means no one would buy the more expensive model, which would drive up the cost of the cheaper one.

karamanolev 4y ago
> Users upgrading cheaper, over-provisioned, possibly loss-leading hardware to get more expensive functionality means no one would buy the more expensive model, which would drive up the cost of the cheaper one. No, not really. If you think tinkering people who would open up their IKEA Symfonisk has a nontrivial overlap with Sonos customers, you're in for a surprise. Richer "nice off-the-shelf device" people will stay that way, DIY with an IKEA speaker people will also stay that way. What it does is it really encourages tinkering, thinking and innovation in the small fraction of people who would do that. It breeds better engineers, more engaged teenagers, a more flexible society. So really - all the positives and almost none of the negatives.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Gone are the days when a $100 processor could go toe to toe with a $360 processor. I'd say that's due to the fact that overclocking is gone and the main differentiation is number of cores, which can't be unlocked these days.
- bigyikes 4y ago
  > Richer "nice off-the-shelf device" people will stay that way, DIY with an IKEA speaker people will also stay that way. HEY! I was literally just researching wireless speakers this week, and considering Sonos. Seeing this post convinced me not to buy Sonos hardware. There’s probably dozens of us out there :)