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> Feel free to design whatever you want. Yes. And if you design a racist bridge designed to keep black people out of a neighborhood, you're either helping raci

> Feel free to design whatever you want. Yes. And if you design a racist bridge designed to keep black people out of a neighborhood, you're either helping racists, or are racist yourself. Feel free to be whatever you want, but accept that if you make racist decisions it makes you a racist.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
but you don't understand! I didn't create my face tracking software for surveillant capitalism!
- dragontamer 4y ago
  I'm not racist! I just chose to work under racist bosses, do what the racist bosses say, and build / design things that those racist bosses liked! Now replace "racism" with whatever other adjective is out there (face-tracking software, guns, etc. etc.) and its really the same thing. We engineers must ethically agree with the things we make, and their expected use. Its one thing if maybe our boss uses the device in a way we didn't expect. But on the other hand, Oppenheimer knew damn well what he was making. The people we support and work for are ethically and morally tied to us engineers. They can only do the things they want with our support. And we are tied with them, since their use of our inventions is actually quite predictable in most situations.
  - jl6 4y ago
    This sort of moral principle is easy to apply in extreme scenarios, but most decisions are not so clear cut: a lot of engineers don’t have complete agency in choosing where they work, and a lot of engineers work on dual-use technology with plausible ethical use. As an example, if we assume Facebook is 100% evil (debatable but let’s go with it), then did the developers of React act unethically because their work furthered Facebook’s goals, or ethically because React is morally neutral (or even positive, as Free software) and it was other engineers who put it to evil uses? And furthermore, even nuclear bombs had a plausible ethical use (end the war sooner).
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      How hard is it for a React.js developer to find a new job elsewhere? If Facebook is 100% evil, then it behooves the workers to work for a less evil company, at a minimum. Of course, Facebook itself isn't 100% evil so things break down in your example. If you're a React.js developer and you're worried about internet privacy, intrusive ad-tech being used to track people (etc. etc.), then maybe... just maybe... you should find something else to work on in a company that matches your ethics better.
      - spurgu 4y ago
        Only siths deal in extremes. No company is 100% evil. But given you are the guy who brought up the "racist bridge" analogy I'm not surprised.
        g42gregory 4y ago
        Just point out that the siths don't exist and we are not in the Hollywood movie. The reason I wanted to point this out is that Hollywood provides an extremely distorted view on the society and a lot of people are using it as reference frame as if it's something real. Having said that, I agree with the poster that no company is 100% evil. It's a good point.
    - matkoniecz 4y ago
      > And furthermore, even nuclear bombs had a plausible ethical use (end the war sooner). Some things have no real ethical use. At least in some cases inventors are unethical to invent some things.
      - jl6 4y ago
        Sure, and those are what I think are the extreme scenarios. What I’m saying is that nearly all scenarios are not so extreme and not so easy to judge.
        matkoniecz 4y ago

bobkazamakis 4y ago

but you don't understand! I didn't create my face tracking software for surveillant capitalism!

dragontamer 4y ago
I'm not racist! I just chose to work under racist bosses, do what the racist bosses say, and build / design things that those racist bosses liked! Now replace "racism" with whatever other adjective is out there (face-tracking software, guns, etc. etc.) and its really the same thing. We engineers must ethically agree with the things we make, and their expected use. Its one thing if maybe our boss uses the device in a way we didn't expect. But on the other hand, Oppenheimer knew damn well what he was making. The people we support and work for are ethically and morally tied to us engineers. They can only do the things they want with our support. And we are tied with them, since their use of our inventions is actually quite predictable in most situations.
- jl6 4y ago
  This sort of moral principle is easy to apply in extreme scenarios, but most decisions are not so clear cut: a lot of engineers don’t have complete agency in choosing where they work, and a lot of engineers work on dual-use technology with plausible ethical use. As an example, if we assume Facebook is 100% evil (debatable but let’s go with it), then did the developers of React act unethically because their work furthered Facebook’s goals, or ethically because React is morally neutral (or even positive, as Free software) and it was other engineers who put it to evil uses? And furthermore, even nuclear bombs had a plausible ethical use (end the war sooner).
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    How hard is it for a React.js developer to find a new job elsewhere? If Facebook is 100% evil, then it behooves the workers to work for a less evil company, at a minimum. Of course, Facebook itself isn't 100% evil so things break down in your example. If you're a React.js developer and you're worried about internet privacy, intrusive ad-tech being used to track people (etc. etc.), then maybe... just maybe... you should find something else to work on in a company that matches your ethics better.
    - spurgu 4y ago
      Only siths deal in extremes. No company is 100% evil. But given you are the guy who brought up the "racist bridge" analogy I'm not surprised.
      - g42gregory 4y ago
        Just point out that the siths don't exist and we are not in the Hollywood movie. The reason I wanted to point this out is that Hollywood provides an extremely distorted view on the society and a lot of people are using it as reference frame as if it's something real. Having said that, I agree with the poster that no company is 100% evil. It's a good point.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    > And furthermore, even nuclear bombs had a plausible ethical use (end the war sooner). Some things have no real ethical use. At least in some cases inventors are unethical to invent some things.
    - jl6 4y ago
      Sure, and those are what I think are the extreme scenarios. What I’m saying is that nearly all scenarios are not so extreme and not so easy to judge.
      - matkoniecz 4y ago