5 ms·

I'm fairly dubious that there's any useful data here. Square footage, bathroom, bedrooms, and other such stuff is public record. Getting the exact layout of m

by treis 4y ago

I'm fairly dubious that there's any useful data here. Square footage, bathroom, bedrooms, and other such stuff is public record. Getting the exact layout of my rooms and furniture doesn't seem to bring any obvious benefit. I guess maybe it can try and identify appliances and such but again not really seeing that as a hugely valuable trove of data.

msoad 4y ago
This article is purely speculation. There nothing back up this claim. I have a Roomba and the map is mediocre at best. Will they use iRobot's platform to sell their future data collection initiatives? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they didn't need this acquisition to sell newer products that does more mapping and data collection. People write articles based on some random thought dump
- Clubber 4y ago
  >This article is purely speculation. Yes, I was thinking that. It's paywalled for me so I couldn't check if this was based on a leak or anything. I hope this is in the opinion section, because without any sources or leaks, it's just some made up garbage.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
squarefoot 4y ago
> I'm fairly dubious that there's any useful data here. Your home layout and size speaks about how much is your income, which usually is a superset of what you could spend in online purchases. Also, should they stick a camera or a very advanced lidar in front of the Roomba, they could build a database of what items their customers have -and don't have- (read: could be pushed to purchase through targeted advertising) in their homes. I expect some more room for Roomba competitors here; certainly I wouldn't want a Amazon branded one even for free.
- gruez 4y ago
  >Your home layout and size speaks about how much is your income okay but can't they get that from your address and correlating that with satellite images and/or zip code data? >Also, should they stick a camera or a very advanced lidar in front of the Roomba, they could build a database of what items their customers have -and don't have- (read: could be pushed to purchase through targeted advertising) in their homes. You're not going to be able to detect much objects with a tiny camera situated on the ground. At best you can figure out what appliances each house has.
  - j-bos 4y ago
    Fair points, a counter: "okay but can't they get that from your address and correlating that with satellite images and/or zip code data?" - I've never found that ignoring one leak because there's another fixes the pipe. "You're not going to be able to detect much objects with a tiny camera situated on the ground. At best you can figure out what appliances each house has." - 20 years ago who would've thought that TV's would all be capturing your life on record. At best they can check what channel you're watching. The concerns seem quite plausible: means, motive, and opportunity.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      The cable operators have been knowing exactly what channel you are watching for longer than 20 years ago. Think back to how long ago you switched your old analog cable box for a fancy digital one. That's how long. If you're not old enough to know about analog cable boxes, then it has always been true for you. TVs just introduced the potential for a camera/microphone and the manufacturer receiving that info directly instead of just the cable co.
    - atomicnumber3 4y ago
      I think the metaphor here is that "sqft of house is visible" is less a pipe and more of a river? Random ways I can think of to harvest sqft of your house: 1. Satellite 2. MLS records and/or building plans 3. Don't amazon drivers drive past like every single house at least once a day at this point? could probably do something with that. Plus, I would be shocked if "amount you spend on amazon per month" doesn't nearly linearly correlate with your income, if that's what they want. Plus doesn't equifax et al literally sell these datasets for this explicit purpose? I agree in principle that in general I do not want amazon to have an internet-connected LIDAR thingy mucking about my house, but also I struggle to figure out what specific privacy delta is happening here that would be a watershed moment. TBH still kind of reeling that most TVs have microphones on them with no clearly policy that they're not always listening (vs phones get a lot more scrutiny) and things to that effect. If I were going to try to improve my privacy, moving to a dumb TV is probably something I'd do well before I got rid of my amazon-roomba.
spandrew 4y ago
It's better to have a DB of the relative size of people's homes than not. You could map it against a DB of their shopping habits. As someone who lives in a condo I can tell you too many furniture manufacturers design their furniture or appliances to be WAYYYY too big. So maybe product managers or portfolio managers can push for SKUs that work for more customer segments. You may be right that the utility is limited. But in the surveillance economies of Google, Amazon and Facebook more data is better.
- mcphage 4y ago
  > It's better to have a DB of the relative size of people's homes than not. Of course, but is it better to have a DB of the relative size of peoples’ homes—or $1.7 billion?
- treis 4y ago
  Probably. But that doesn't mean that it was the driving force behind the acquisition. Amazon, Google & Apple are all in a battle for the home automation ecosystem. They each want use to use Siri/Alexa/Assistant to control your tv, doorbell, security cams, and more. This seems like another product to add to that ecosystem.
mrweasel 4y ago
Amazon has shown us that even massive amount of data aren't that useful on their own. They can't even use their information about our online purchases in any meaningful way. Only book recommendations seems to work, but that's also pretty trivial to do. The plans for my house isn't even secret, you can go to the county and get a copy for the cost to the paper. Maybe I'm not creative enough, but in what sense does the data collected by Roomba help you in anyway? Wifi coverage? Maybe they want to sell me an additional AP?
- jksmith 4y ago
  Just for some conspiratorial fun, what if you converted your house into a meth lab? You're just assuming that Rumba will use collision and move mapping. Pretty crude by tomorrow's standards. What is the evolving difference between innocent search for marketing purposes vs search for illegal use, the consumer of the data product?
owenwil 4y ago
I initially thought this, but the technology from competitors like Roborock (I have the S7 maxV) gives me pause: their more modern vacuums not only recognize furniture and layouts, including the chair layout, couch type etc... but they also detect and categorize specific objects you have lying around (it can distinguish shoes, animals, cables, power strips, blankets)... that data seems pretty useful alongside ambient information like temperature inside the house to me. Yes, it's possible to disable these features–but the robot is less useful without them, and it seems unlikely the average user would understand the implication. If you can figure out what type of shoes[1] someone owns or that they have kids/a dog based on all the toys lying around, there's plenty of ad/behavioral data for free basically. (I love the Roborock vacuum I have, and would find it hard to give it up even if Amazon acquired them too–it's really good. Thankfully, they have a good privacy focus right now and do state that these features don't share information with the company/stays local to the robot right now). [1] https://twitter.com/ow/status/1555588525982363648 https://twitter.com/ow/status/1555588525982363648
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  It’s Alexa with wheels.
- saimiam 4y ago
  Jeez, so Black Mirror-ish.
- EForEndeavour 4y ago
  This is not a new observation, but damn, imagine how much engineering talent and human effort in general is devoted to the end goal of selling more shit.
  - westpfelia 4y ago
    Its really depressing. Could be working towards solving real world problems. But hey. Capitalism has got to get its pound of flesh.
    - deleted 4y ago
alephxyz 4y ago
I think just scanning WiFi/LAN/Bluetooth for MAC addresses through their smart speakers would be a better indicator of disposable income. Heck, if they already have access to your Amazon purchases and the Roomba model you own they probably have a good idea of your income bracket.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  On top of that, Amazon knows your address... looking up your home value on Zillow (or whatever the enterprisey equivalent is) is going to be a better proxy than training vacuums to surreptitiously read 401k statemenrs
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
Wait until they put more sensors on it...
DubiousPusher 4y ago
Isn't speculation half the game in the data business though? You're probably never quite sure what data will be useful in 5-10 years. What's more, if you wait to build the data gathering aparatus until you know what you need you'll almost certainly end up behind someone else. I think it's probably wise to see most acquisitions these days as a possible long term data play or even as a serendipitous one.
huhtenberg 4y ago
1. Roomba iPad app requires an access to the location services on its first run. You literally cannot be anything unless it can grab your location. It can be switched off afterwards however. To a fairly reasonable question of "Why is this required" their support replied "Don't like this? Tough life and fuck off." (rephrased for clarity). 2. Roombas have cameras and they refuse to run if these cameras are blocked.
- dylan604 4y ago
  2. Some Roombas have cameras. My particular Roomba does not have cameras. It was a deciding factor in my decision of which model is right for me. There are other features that were originally only available on the models with cameras like being able to map a floor plan and then telling Roomba which specifi room to clean. However, a few months ago, a software update provided that feature to my model as well. I have to send it on a specific mapping routine, but I just hadn't gotten around to doing it. I probably won't ever now.
gaoshan 4y ago
I think the default stance on data collection that we don't necessarily see as "useful data" should be caution. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean much... we are probably missing something (or underestimating future usefulness). Better to take a strict approach now than try to patch things later once the penny drops and we "get it".
- dylan604 4y ago
  This is very much one of those just because you can't think of something does not mean someone else hasn't already. It's more along the lines of you're just not practiced enough.
toss1 4y ago
Sure, technically the data is available at every town hall. But the process of collecting and collating it is vastly different than the process of collecting it from an active mobile sensor kit in every home. Collecting official records required paid workers scaling linearly with every record, and yields info that is out of date at best (how many small renovations are done without permits?). In contrast, with these devices, your target pays you to buy and run the device, and it automatically collects live-up-to-the-minute data merely incidental to the standard operation of the device. Car analogy: Police can technically observe every speeding incident and issue tickets, but it scales only with the hours worked. Change that to collecting data from every car's internal sensors (engine RPM, gear, wheel speed, GPS location, etc.) and issuing tickets for every infraction. Most of us would get five tickets from the first commute vs likely going more than five years without one. Technically the exact same data availability, but the process of collecting it has insanely different results.
tootie 4y ago
If your place was listed on Zillow/Redfin/Streeteasy/etc then they already have a detailed floorplan. Idk what they are going to learn about where you put your couch.
yunwal 4y ago
You have a space next to your couch that could be occupied by a side table. Here's a few suggestions:

by treis 4y ago

msoad 4y ago

This article is purely speculation. There nothing back up this claim. I have a Roomba and the map is mediocre at best. Will they use iRobot's platform to sell their future data collection initiatives? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they didn't need this acquisition to sell newer products that does more mapping and data collection. People write articles based on some random thought dump

Clubber 4y ago
>This article is purely speculation. Yes, I was thinking that. It's paywalled for me so I couldn't check if this was based on a leak or anything. I hope this is in the opinion section, because without any sources or leaks, it's just some made up garbage.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

squarefoot 4y ago

> I'm fairly dubious that there's any useful data here. Your home layout and size speaks about how much is your income, which usually is a superset of what you could spend in online purchases. Also, should they stick a camera or a very advanced lidar in front of the Roomba, they could build a database of what items their customers have -and don't have- (read: could be pushed to purchase through targeted advertising) in their homes. I expect some more room for Roomba competitors here; certainly I wouldn't want a Amazon branded one even for free.

gruez 4y ago
>Your home layout and size speaks about how much is your income okay but can't they get that from your address and correlating that with satellite images and/or zip code data? >Also, should they stick a camera or a very advanced lidar in front of the Roomba, they could build a database of what items their customers have -and don't have- (read: could be pushed to purchase through targeted advertising) in their homes. You're not going to be able to detect much objects with a tiny camera situated on the ground. At best you can figure out what appliances each house has.
- j-bos 4y ago
  Fair points, a counter: "okay but can't they get that from your address and correlating that with satellite images and/or zip code data?" - I've never found that ignoring one leak because there's another fixes the pipe. "You're not going to be able to detect much objects with a tiny camera situated on the ground. At best you can figure out what appliances each house has." - 20 years ago who would've thought that TV's would all be capturing your life on record. At best they can check what channel you're watching. The concerns seem quite plausible: means, motive, and opportunity.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    The cable operators have been knowing exactly what channel you are watching for longer than 20 years ago. Think back to how long ago you switched your old analog cable box for a fancy digital one. That's how long. If you're not old enough to know about analog cable boxes, then it has always been true for you. TVs just introduced the potential for a camera/microphone and the manufacturer receiving that info directly instead of just the cable co.
  - atomicnumber3 4y ago
    I think the metaphor here is that "sqft of house is visible" is less a pipe and more of a river? Random ways I can think of to harvest sqft of your house: 1. Satellite 2. MLS records and/or building plans 3. Don't amazon drivers drive past like every single house at least once a day at this point? could probably do something with that. Plus, I would be shocked if "amount you spend on amazon per month" doesn't nearly linearly correlate with your income, if that's what they want. Plus doesn't equifax et al literally sell these datasets for this explicit purpose? I agree in principle that in general I do not want amazon to have an internet-connected LIDAR thingy mucking about my house, but also I struggle to figure out what specific privacy delta is happening here that would be a watershed moment. TBH still kind of reeling that most TVs have microphones on them with no clearly policy that they're not always listening (vs phones get a lot more scrutiny) and things to that effect. If I were going to try to improve my privacy, moving to a dumb TV is probably something I'd do well before I got rid of my amazon-roomba.

spandrew 4y ago

It's better to have a DB of the relative size of people's homes than not. You could map it against a DB of their shopping habits. As someone who lives in a condo I can tell you too many furniture manufacturers design their furniture or appliances to be WAYYYY too big. So maybe product managers or portfolio managers can push for SKUs that work for more customer segments. You may be right that the utility is limited. But in the surveillance economies of Google, Amazon and Facebook more data is better.

mcphage 4y ago
> It's better to have a DB of the relative size of people's homes than not. Of course, but is it better to have a DB of the relative size of peoples’ homes—or $1.7 billion?
treis 4y ago
Probably. But that doesn't mean that it was the driving force behind the acquisition. Amazon, Google & Apple are all in a battle for the home automation ecosystem. They each want use to use Siri/Alexa/Assistant to control your tv, doorbell, security cams, and more. This seems like another product to add to that ecosystem.

mrweasel 4y ago

Amazon has shown us that even massive amount of data aren't that useful on their own. They can't even use their information about our online purchases in any meaningful way. Only book recommendations seems to work, but that's also pretty trivial to do. The plans for my house isn't even secret, you can go to the county and get a copy for the cost to the paper. Maybe I'm not creative enough, but in what sense does the data collected by Roomba help you in anyway? Wifi coverage? Maybe they want to sell me an additional AP?

jksmith 4y ago
Just for some conspiratorial fun, what if you converted your house into a meth lab? You're just assuming that Rumba will use collision and move mapping. Pretty crude by tomorrow's standards. What is the evolving difference between innocent search for marketing purposes vs search for illegal use, the consumer of the data product?

owenwil 4y ago

I initially thought this, but the technology from competitors like Roborock (I have the S7 maxV) gives me pause: their more modern vacuums not only recognize furniture and layouts, including the chair layout, couch type etc... but they also detect and categorize specific objects you have lying around (it can distinguish shoes, animals, cables, power strips, blankets)... that data seems pretty useful alongside ambient information like temperature inside the house to me. Yes, it's possible to disable these features–but the robot is less useful without them, and it seems unlikely the average user would understand the implication. If you can figure out what type of shoes[1] someone owns or that they have kids/a dog based on all the toys lying around, there's plenty of ad/behavioral data for free basically. (I love the Roborock vacuum I have, and would find it hard to give it up even if Amazon acquired them too–it's really good. Thankfully, they have a good privacy focus right now and do state that these features don't share information with the company/stays local to the robot right now). [1] https://twitter.com/ow/status/1555588525982363648 https://twitter.com/ow/status/1555588525982363648

rgrieselhuber 4y ago
It’s Alexa with wheels.
saimiam 4y ago
Jeez, so Black Mirror-ish.
EForEndeavour 4y ago
This is not a new observation, but damn, imagine how much engineering talent and human effort in general is devoted to the end goal of selling more shit.
- westpfelia 4y ago
  Its really depressing. Could be working towards solving real world problems. But hey. Capitalism has got to get its pound of flesh.
  - deleted 4y ago

alephxyz 4y ago

I think just scanning WiFi/LAN/Bluetooth for MAC addresses through their smart speakers would be a better indicator of disposable income. Heck, if they already have access to your Amazon purchases and the Roomba model you own they probably have a good idea of your income bracket.

Rebelgecko 4y ago
On top of that, Amazon knows your address... looking up your home value on Zillow (or whatever the enterprisey equivalent is) is going to be a better proxy than training vacuums to surreptitiously read 401k statemenrs

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

Wait until they put more sensors on it...

DubiousPusher 4y ago

Isn't speculation half the game in the data business though? You're probably never quite sure what data will be useful in 5-10 years. What's more, if you wait to build the data gathering aparatus until you know what you need you'll almost certainly end up behind someone else. I think it's probably wise to see most acquisitions these days as a possible long term data play or even as a serendipitous one.

huhtenberg 4y ago

1. Roomba iPad app requires an access to the location services on its first run. You literally cannot be anything unless it can grab your location. It can be switched off afterwards however. To a fairly reasonable question of "Why is this required" their support replied "Don't like this? Tough life and fuck off." (rephrased for clarity). 2. Roombas have cameras and they refuse to run if these cameras are blocked.

dylan604 4y ago
2. Some Roombas have cameras. My particular Roomba does not have cameras. It was a deciding factor in my decision of which model is right for me. There are other features that were originally only available on the models with cameras like being able to map a floor plan and then telling Roomba which specifi room to clean. However, a few months ago, a software update provided that feature to my model as well. I have to send it on a specific mapping routine, but I just hadn't gotten around to doing it. I probably won't ever now.

gaoshan 4y ago

I think the default stance on data collection that we don't necessarily see as "useful data" should be caution. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean much... we are probably missing something (or underestimating future usefulness). Better to take a strict approach now than try to patch things later once the penny drops and we "get it".

dylan604 4y ago
This is very much one of those just because you can't think of something does not mean someone else hasn't already. It's more along the lines of you're just not practiced enough.

toss1 4y ago

Sure, technically the data is available at every town hall. But the process of collecting and collating it is vastly different than the process of collecting it from an active mobile sensor kit in every home. Collecting official records required paid workers scaling linearly with every record, and yields info that is out of date at best (how many small renovations are done without permits?). In contrast, with these devices, your target pays you to buy and run the device, and it automatically collects live-up-to-the-minute data merely incidental to the standard operation of the device. Car analogy: Police can technically observe every speeding incident and issue tickets, but it scales only with the hours worked. Change that to collecting data from every car's internal sensors (engine RPM, gear, wheel speed, GPS location, etc.) and issuing tickets for every infraction. Most of us would get five tickets from the first commute vs likely going more than five years without one. Technically the exact same data availability, but the process of collecting it has insanely different results.

tootie 4y ago

If your place was listed on Zillow/Redfin/Streeteasy/etc then they already have a detailed floorplan. Idk what they are going to learn about where you put your couch.

yunwal 4y ago

You have a space next to your couch that could be occupied by a side table. Here's a few suggestions: