9 ms·

[Gattaca](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/) is about the long term consequences of this exact technology for society.

[Gattaca](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/) is about the long term consequences of this exact technology for society. In particular, the consequences for the children born naturally who don't benefit from this tech. They don't get any say in the decision, but end up heavily penalized, barred from certain jobs for "safety" reasons, aren't desirable partners... an underclass of society.

kanzure 4y ago
"If the audience is supposed to accept that genetic determinism is true in Gattaca, then no amount of Vincent's hard work should make Vincent a hero. He's just a fraud. If the audience is not supposed to believe that in the world of Gattaca genetic determinism is true (that is, it's false), then it should be interpreted as a story of discrimination, and a story of the underdog's heroic hard work overcoming the negative effects of a corrupt, wrong, erroneously-discriminating society." from http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/Gattaca.pdf http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/Gattaca.pdf
- derefr 4y ago
  Seems to me that genetic determinism doesn’t have to be “right” or “wrong”, but rather a sometimes-useful model that we other times do not allow to colour our views. I.e. we have weight classes and gender divides for sporting events (genetic determinism), but each person who meets a minimum threshold of competence (e.g. not in prison) gets an equal democratic vote.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    What is the model being referenced where someone in prison is automatically incompetent to vote? Especially given the human legacy of the war on drugs in there for example, this seems like a really good example of letting one policy color our views of an unrelated one. You think we're going to formalize our class system with genetics and biology but then somehow ignore that in all the realms where it's not relevant? Who decides when it is relevant.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      To be fair, in most of the USA it's 'has been to prison' as voting rights are not restored in every state upon release. Some animals get reverted to the 'taxation without representation' model. Those inalienable rights are actually pretty alienable after all. Who knew?
- dicroce 4y ago
  It's not that you cannot use Genetic information to accurately predict certain aspects of someone's future... It's that genetic information tells you nothing about human will, and human will can overcome a lot.
  - zajio1am 4y ago
    Why do you think that predispositions for human will are not genetically determinted?
    - tannhauser23 4y ago
      Maybe, but that's not what they tested for in the movie.
      - tmlb 4y ago
        They sort of touched on this point in the movie: >No one exceeds their potential. If they did, it would mean we did not accurately gauge their potential in the first place.
        throw123123123 4y ago
        They also say "There is no gene for success"
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Human will can also be survivorship bias masquerading as exceptionalism.
throw123123123 4y ago
This is one of the best sci-fi movies of all time - it really captures one essence of being a human being, that motivation and drive vastly outcompete better opportunity. "You know, my son was never what they promised me he would be" gets me to tears every time.
jfk13 4y ago
You just have to condition them appropriately, so that they happily accept their place. See Brave New World for the blueprints.
- kanzure 4y ago
  You might find that Brave New World is not quite the same cautionary tale against genetic enhancement that popular discourse would have you believe (it's more about totalitarianism): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128854
  - sufficer 4y ago
    Uh did you read brave new world? Lol.
  - sufficer 4y ago
    You quote so much but I don't think you've read the book man.
sigstoat 4y ago
> the long term consequences of this exact technology for society > They don't get any say in the decision, but end up heavily penalized, barred from certain jobs for "safety" reasons, aren't desirable partners... you realize gattaca was fiction, right? and also https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-Discrimination https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-...
norwalkbear 4y ago
People who don't benefit from good genes are already the underclass today
- imiric 4y ago
  Not in the way commercial gene selection would enable. It would give more power to the rich to breed genetically superior humans, something that was previously up to chance, and a level playing field for everyone, regardless of social status. In a few generations, rich families would be untouchable genetically, producing a superior lineage and widening the social gap. This is why it's critical that access to this technology is democratized and equally accessible to everyone. It's crazy to me that we're already approaching Gattaca, and the discussion does not revolve entirely on how to prevent it.
  - krageon 4y ago
    Genetically superior humans are a net benefit to all of humanity. Inevitably they will interbreed with arbitrary other people occasionally and the technological advances also benefit everyone. Yes, it will stratify society - all of society is and has always been stratified. It is not a good indicator to inform whether or not you should do something. > It's crazy to me that we're already approaching Gattaca, and the discussion does not revolve entirely on how to prevent it. Because the movie has been engineered specifically to make you feel vindicated: Someone is said to be limited, they then overcome this limitation. It is the "american dream" in movie form. Another poster has said it higher up: If genetic determinism is real, the main character is a fraud. Viewed through that lens, it becomes an entirely different movie.

kanzure 4y ago

"If the audience is supposed to accept that genetic determinism is true in Gattaca, then no amount of Vincent's hard work should make Vincent a hero. He's just a fraud. If the audience is not supposed to believe that in the world of Gattaca genetic determinism is true (that is, it's false), then it should be interpreted as a story of discrimination, and a story of the underdog's heroic hard work overcoming the negative effects of a corrupt, wrong, erroneously-discriminating society." from http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/Gattaca.pdf http://www.ln.edu.hk/philoso/staff/sesardic/Gattaca.pdf

derefr 4y ago
Seems to me that genetic determinism doesn’t have to be “right” or “wrong”, but rather a sometimes-useful model that we other times do not allow to colour our views. I.e. we have weight classes and gender divides for sporting events (genetic determinism), but each person who meets a minimum threshold of competence (e.g. not in prison) gets an equal democratic vote.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  What is the model being referenced where someone in prison is automatically incompetent to vote? Especially given the human legacy of the war on drugs in there for example, this seems like a really good example of letting one policy color our views of an unrelated one. You think we're going to formalize our class system with genetics and biology but then somehow ignore that in all the realms where it's not relevant? Who decides when it is relevant.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    To be fair, in most of the USA it's 'has been to prison' as voting rights are not restored in every state upon release. Some animals get reverted to the 'taxation without representation' model. Those inalienable rights are actually pretty alienable after all. Who knew?
dicroce 4y ago
It's not that you cannot use Genetic information to accurately predict certain aspects of someone's future... It's that genetic information tells you nothing about human will, and human will can overcome a lot.
- zajio1am 4y ago
  Why do you think that predispositions for human will are not genetically determinted?
  - tannhauser23 4y ago
    Maybe, but that's not what they tested for in the movie.
    - tmlb 4y ago
      They sort of touched on this point in the movie: >No one exceeds their potential. If they did, it would mean we did not accurately gauge their potential in the first place.
      - throw123123123 4y ago
        They also say "There is no gene for success"
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Human will can also be survivorship bias masquerading as exceptionalism.

throw123123123 4y ago

This is one of the best sci-fi movies of all time - it really captures one essence of being a human being, that motivation and drive vastly outcompete better opportunity. "You know, my son was never what they promised me he would be" gets me to tears every time.

jfk13 4y ago

You just have to condition them appropriately, so that they happily accept their place. See Brave New World for the blueprints.

kanzure 4y ago
You might find that Brave New World is not quite the same cautionary tale against genetic enhancement that popular discourse would have you believe (it's more about totalitarianism): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22128854
- sufficer 4y ago
  Uh did you read brave new world? Lol.
- sufficer 4y ago
  You quote so much but I don't think you've read the book man.

sigstoat 4y ago

> the long term consequences of this exact technology for society > They don't get any say in the decision, but end up heavily penalized, barred from certain jobs for "safety" reasons, aren't desirable partners... you realize gattaca was fiction, right? and also https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-Discrimination https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-...

norwalkbear 4y ago

People who don't benefit from good genes are already the underclass today

imiric 4y ago
Not in the way commercial gene selection would enable. It would give more power to the rich to breed genetically superior humans, something that was previously up to chance, and a level playing field for everyone, regardless of social status. In a few generations, rich families would be untouchable genetically, producing a superior lineage and widening the social gap. This is why it's critical that access to this technology is democratized and equally accessible to everyone. It's crazy to me that we're already approaching Gattaca, and the discussion does not revolve entirely on how to prevent it.
- krageon 4y ago
  Genetically superior humans are a net benefit to all of humanity. Inevitably they will interbreed with arbitrary other people occasionally and the technological advances also benefit everyone. Yes, it will stratify society - all of society is and has always been stratified. It is not a good indicator to inform whether or not you should do something. > It's crazy to me that we're already approaching Gattaca, and the discussion does not revolve entirely on how to prevent it. Because the movie has been engineered specifically to make you feel vindicated: Someone is said to be limited, they then overcome this limitation. It is the "american dream" in movie form. Another poster has said it higher up: If genetic determinism is real, the main character is a fraud. Viewed through that lens, it becomes an entirely different movie.