9 ms·
Source: I work in the field. This is a current limitation, and an artifact of the data+method but not something that should be relied upon. If we do some adve
by sbszllr 4y ago
Source: I work in the field.
This is a current limitation, and an artifact of the data+method but not something that should be relied upon.
If we do some adversary modelling, we can find two ways to work around this:
1) actively generate and search for such data; perhaps expensive for small actors but not well equipped malicious ones.
2) wait for deep learning to catch up, e.g. by extending NERFs (neural radiance fields) to faces; matter of time.
Now, if your company/government is on the bleeding edge of ML-based deception, they can have such policy, and they will update it 12-18-24 months (or whenever (1) or (2) materialises). However, I don't know one organisation that doesn't have some outdated security guideline that they cling to, e.g. old school password rules and rotations.
Will "turning sideways to spot a deepfake" be a valid test in 5 years? Prolly no, so don't base your secops around this.
- cpach 4y agoAs far as I can see, secops is an eternal cat-and-mouse game.
- Scoundreller 4y agojob security
- cpach 4y agoIndeed (:
- guerrilla 4y agoLiterally an arms race.
- HPsquared 4y agoFace race?
- b112 4y ago[flagged]
- dang 4y agoWould you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly, it's against the site guidelines, we end up banning such accounts, and we've had to warn you more than once before. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one, just to pick one example: "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." That's one of the most important rules for avoiding what turns internet threads dumb and nasty.
- b112 4y agoNot sure what to say to this one. Women can get sensitive, if requests of them can be seen in an unpleasant light. Women have also been historically tricked into posing for cameras, had their images misused, and are often quite sensitive about it. I thought my comment was legit, and on topic. If one is going to implement a policy where people have to slowly move their camera around their body, there may be severe misunderstandings ... and an inability to clarify if a bad response runs-away on twitter and such. Support persons should be carefully coached on how to handle this. I guess all I can say here is, I didn't mean this to be so controversial. Sorry.
- dang 4y agoThe greater problem is that you've been breaking the site guidelines repeatedly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32299889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32299889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32299875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32299875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32295137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32295137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32292576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32292576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32292440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32292440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32290426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32290426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289581 We ban accounts that keep doing that, so would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit of curious conversation more to heart? Tedious flamewar, especially the back-and-forth, tit-for-tat kind, is exactly what we don't want here.´
- devteambravo 4y agoSome see secops as futile until the tools are here. So we're making those tools instead.
- elondaits 4y ago“The Impossible Mission Force has the technical capabilities to copy anyone’s face and imitate their voice, so don’t base your secops around someone’s appearance.” … yes, because that worked well.
- jhardy54 4y ago> … yes, because that worked well. Just to be clear, Mission Impossible is not a documentary.
- salawat 4y agoIt is however, a lower bound on whether it is the case that something is a reasonably forseeable/precedented area of research. After all, if the artist can imagine and build a story around it, there'll be an engineer somewhere who'll go "Ah, what the hell, I could do that." *By Golblum/Finnagle's Law, it is guaranteed said Engineer will not contemplate whether they should before implementing it, and distributing it to the world. This another example of why we can't have nice things.
- WalterBright 4y agoI wonder how good the deepfake would be for things it didn't have training data on. For example, making an extreme grimace. Or have the caller insert a ping pong ball in his cheek to continue, or pull his face with his fingers. One thing I notice with colorized movies is the color of the actor's teeth tends to flicker between grey and ivory. I wonder if there are similar artifacts with deep fakes.
- ErikCorry 4y ago"Please put one finger behind each ear and flap them at me."
- anticristi 4y agoI had to laugh with tears at this one. :)
- bgro 4y agoPlease drink a verification can to continue, caller.
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y agoA can of Ubik please
- robocat 4y agoMeme written in 2013(?), set in 2018, playing Halo 2k19: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/632877-halo-4/66477630 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/632877-halo-4/66477630 meme branch of https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doritos-mountain-dew https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doritos-mountain-dew
- Gigachad 4y agoIf I remember correctly, the context was that Microsoft had made the Kinect mandatory for the Xbox One which wouldn't function without it. And the Kinect was being used for some silly voice/motion control crap. The extreme reaction and copypastas like this probably lead to microsoft scrapping that idea a few years later.
- SoftTalker 4y agoLast time I applied for a credit card online, they asked me to take a video of myself and turn my head from side to side.
- spurgu 4y agoYeah this is quite common with fintech (stock brokers and crypto IME) KYC nowadays I've noticed.
- golemotron 4y agoAnd now that scan could eventually end up out there someplace.
- sroussey 4y agoAgreed. Now they have the data to deep fake you turning your head. I hope they delete the data immediately after use.
- notahacker 4y agoFrankly, of all the personally identifying data I share with my bank, a low resolution phone video of the side of my head is the least worrying. It's like worrying the government knows my mum's maiden name! In the eventuality that robust deepfake technology to provide fluid real-time animation of my head from limited data sources exists and someone actually wants to use it against me, they can probably find video content involving the side of my head from some freely available social network anyway.
- SoftTalker 4y agoAnd, if deepfake technology becomes so easy to use, video of your face will no longer serve to identify you.
- tacocataco 4y agoI've been looking to rent housing and get a new job the last few months. The amount of info I've sent strangers always worries me. At least with housing they don't ask me to input the information I've already sent them into their crappy website.
- simonswords82 4y agoInteresting to bump in to somebody that works in this field. What do you do in this field? What's the direction of travel on it? What makes it worth pursuing at a commercial level? In other words - how is this tech going to be abused/monetized?
- Strom 4y ago> This is a current limitation The thing with any AI/ML tech is that current limitations are always underplayed by proponents. Self-driving cars will come out next year, every year. I'd say that until the tech actually exists, this is a great way to detect live deepfakes. Not using the technique just because maybe sometime in the future it won't work isn't very sound. For an extreme opponent you may need additional steps. So this sideways trick probably isn't enough for CIA or whatnot, but that's about as fringe as you can get and very little generic advice applies anyway.
- esotericimpl 4y ago
- technothrasher 4y agoIt sounded to me like the parent poster wasn't saying not to use it, but simply that it cannot be relied upon. In other words, a deepfake could fail a 'turn sideways' test and that would be useful, but you shouldn't rely on a 'passing' test.
- kbenson 4y agoAnother way to think of it might be that it can be relied on - until it can't. Be ready and wary of that happening, but until then you have what's probably a good mitigation of the problem.
- hosh 4y agoI think the concern is complacency, and the inertia that existing security practices leads to security gaps in the future. "However, I don't know one organisation that doesn't have some outdated security guideline that they cling to, e.g. old school password rules and rotations." Or put another way, humans can't be ready and wary, constantly and indefinitely. At some point, fatigue sets in. People move in and out of the organization. Periodic reviews of security practices don't always catch everything. Why something was implemented was forgotten by institutional memory. And then there's the cost for retraining people.
- kortex 4y agoWhat about reflections? When I worked on media forensics, the reflection discrepancy detector worked extremely well, but was very situational, as pictures were not guaranteed to have enough of a reflection to analyze. Asking the subject to hold up a mirror and move it around pushes the matte and inpainting problems to a whole nother level (though it may require automated analysis to detect the discrepancies). I think that too might be spoofable given enough time and data. Maybe we could have complex optical trains (reflection, distortion, chromatic aberration), possibly even one that modulates in real time...this kind of just devolves into a Byzantine generals problem. Data coming from an untrusted pipe just fundamentally isn't trustable.
- kazinator 4y agoOK, you passed the yokogao test. Now take a crayon and draw an X on your cheek.
- mrandish 4y ago> so don't base your secops around this. If it's a high-threat context I don't think live video should be relied on regardless of deep fakes. Bribing or coercing the person is always an alternative when the stakes are high.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> Will "turning sideways to spot a deepfake" be a valid test in 5 years? Prolly no, so don't base your secops around this. couldn't the same thing be said about passwords, 2FA with SMS or asymmetric cryptography? meanwhile real IDs have been easy to replicate for decades, but are still good enough for the job.
- dylan604 4y ago>Will "turning sideways to spot a deepfake" be a valid test in 5 years? Prolly no, so don't base your secops around this. We'll just ask them to do "the Linda Blair". If they can turn their head 360 degrees, prolly a deepfake ;P
- stcredzero 4y ago1) actively generate and search for such data What about doing a bunch of video calls, and asking for callers to show their profile, "to guard against deepfakes?"
- hugobitola 4y agoWhat if the real person draws something on his face? Does the deepfake algorithm removes it from the resulting image? Can you ask the caller to draw a line on his face with a pen as a test?
- drdec 4y ago> Can you ask the caller to draw a line on his face with a pen as a test? I think if the caller did this without objection that would be a bigger indication that it is a deep fake than the alternative. What real person is going to comply with this?
- bushbaba 4y agoAsking for entropy that’s easy for a real human to comply with and difficult for a prebuilt AI is at least a short term measure. Such-as show me the back of your head sideways then go from head to feet without cutting the feed. Easy for a human, difficult for ML/AI
- wildmanx 4y agoIt saddens me how many smart people are working in such an unethical field.
- dheera 4y agoThe other thing is, why is this even important, when you shouldn't be basing decisions off the other person's race or face in general? Base everything off the work they do, not how they look. Embracing deepfakes is accepting that you don't discriminate on appearances. Hell, everyone should systematically deepfake themselves into white males for interviews so that there is assured to be zero racial/gender bias in the interview process.
- neximo64 4y agoBut currently, it's pretty much a guarantee that you can pick out a deepfake with this method as there is no way for current methods to account for it that are in use. As with any interaction with more than one adversary, there is an infinite escalation and evolution with time. And similarly then something will come up then that is unaccounted for and so on, and so on.
- tmm84 4y agoI was thinking of those two cases. Stuff like this is always a cat and mouse game.