4 ms·

Maybe my headcanon is wrong but my understanding is that the us navy utterly sucked at the beginning of WWII (e.g. torpedoes that didn't work, Halsey) - and it

Maybe my headcanon is wrong but my understanding is that the us navy utterly sucked at the beginning of WWII (e.g. torpedoes that didn't work, Halsey) - and it was very likely through a combination of "figure your shit out", natural selection, and at the top promoting a handful of amazing no bullshit admirals (king, ching lee) that got the US out of it. There was still incompetence in the later years (cough cough Halsey) One of the actually longstanding traditions on the US navy is irreverence to decorum or the chain of command when it matters, too, so that sort of operational agility probably was a big factor.

bpodgursky 4y ago
Halsey was mediocre but honestly I only think mediocre in comparison to the talent that otherwise surrounded him.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Uh didn't he sail his fleet into a typhoon?
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    He did. Two typhoons actually. He also fell for the Japanese faint at Leyte Gulf. But he led the successful raids against the Japanese in February and March '42, and then launched Doolittle's planes in April. But most importantly, he replaced Admiral Ghormley as the theater commander for Guadalcanal, and changed the fortunes of that most crucial campaign. A loss at Guadalcanal would have undone the victory at Midway. Conversely, the victory at Guadalcanal, in pretty much every historian's mind, spelled the end of the IJN's dominance in the Pacific. For that, Halsey should get the tribute. But I personally also applaud Nimitz who visited Guadalcanal, assessed the situation and decided Ghormley had to go. And who also figured out that Halsey, who until then was just a raider, would be able to switch to an administrator and be an excellent one at that.
squaresmile 4y ago
Yeah I feel like the overwhelming naval victory at Midway and in the overall war kind of masked the flaws and mistakes of the WWII US navy in the public perception. The WWII US navy made many operational and tactical mistakes. For example, even with the major intelligence advantage, the Battle of Midway was pretty dicey and a lot of luck was required to achieve the unthinkable result of sinking 4 carriers. Don't get me wrong, the US probably would have won the naval war regardless due to the materiel advantage. I think a big part of the "fighting spirit" the OOP mentioned came from the Pearl Harbor attack. It galvanized everyone into action and lessons were learnt and mistakes were fixed very quickly, at all level of the military. For example, after the lost of Lexington, fuel lines were drained and filled with inert gas and that lesson was propagated quickly through the fleet. The fast turnaround between mistakes and lessons learnt probably also came hand in hand with how individuals were empowered to make decisions and took responsibility. On other side of the coin, I think the IJN incompetence got highlighted and not enough credits were given. Their carrier divisions were very very highly trained and operated at a much higher tempo than the US at the start of war. The IJN night battle tactics were also very deadly. Even after Midway, they still went toe to toe with the USN during the attritional Guadalcanal campaigns. Despite their doctrine and culture giving them plenty of weaknesses and blind spots, it also gave them many strengths. I dare say during the preparation for the war, the "fighting spirit" and the effectiveness of the IJN was just as high. In my opinion, the myths surrounding the Pacific naval war obscure very interesting stories from both sides with plenty of lessons that are still applicable today.

bpodgursky 4y ago

Halsey was mediocre but honestly I only think mediocre in comparison to the talent that otherwise surrounded him.

throwawaymaths 4y ago
Uh didn't he sail his fleet into a typhoon?
- credit_guy 4y ago
  He did. Two typhoons actually. He also fell for the Japanese faint at Leyte Gulf. But he led the successful raids against the Japanese in February and March '42, and then launched Doolittle's planes in April. But most importantly, he replaced Admiral Ghormley as the theater commander for Guadalcanal, and changed the fortunes of that most crucial campaign. A loss at Guadalcanal would have undone the victory at Midway. Conversely, the victory at Guadalcanal, in pretty much every historian's mind, spelled the end of the IJN's dominance in the Pacific. For that, Halsey should get the tribute. But I personally also applaud Nimitz who visited Guadalcanal, assessed the situation and decided Ghormley had to go. And who also figured out that Halsey, who until then was just a raider, would be able to switch to an administrator and be an excellent one at that.

squaresmile 4y ago

Yeah I feel like the overwhelming naval victory at Midway and in the overall war kind of masked the flaws and mistakes of the WWII US navy in the public perception. The WWII US navy made many operational and tactical mistakes. For example, even with the major intelligence advantage, the Battle of Midway was pretty dicey and a lot of luck was required to achieve the unthinkable result of sinking 4 carriers. Don't get me wrong, the US probably would have won the naval war regardless due to the materiel advantage. I think a big part of the "fighting spirit" the OOP mentioned came from the Pearl Harbor attack. It galvanized everyone into action and lessons were learnt and mistakes were fixed very quickly, at all level of the military. For example, after the lost of Lexington, fuel lines were drained and filled with inert gas and that lesson was propagated quickly through the fleet. The fast turnaround between mistakes and lessons learnt probably also came hand in hand with how individuals were empowered to make decisions and took responsibility. On other side of the coin, I think the IJN incompetence got highlighted and not enough credits were given. Their carrier divisions were very very highly trained and operated at a much higher tempo than the US at the start of war. The IJN night battle tactics were also very deadly. Even after Midway, they still went toe to toe with the USN during the attritional Guadalcanal campaigns. Despite their doctrine and culture giving them plenty of weaknesses and blind spots, it also gave them many strengths. I dare say during the preparation for the war, the "fighting spirit" and the effectiveness of the IJN was just as high. In my opinion, the myths surrounding the Pacific naval war obscure very interesting stories from both sides with plenty of lessons that are still applicable today.