11 ms·

“Phenomenal”? Hardly. The base expectation outside of tech is time-and-a-half for each hour over 8 in a day, or 40 in a week.

by sidlls 4y ago

dasil003 4y ago
For actual work, not for being on call with the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong
- vageli 4y ago
  Do firemen also not work given that a considerable amount of their time is spent waiting for a call?
  - stickfigure 4y ago
    Professional firefighters spend a lot of their "waiting" time training, writing reports, fixing the apparatus, sharpening shovels, cleaning chainsaws, etc. It isn't the same.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      For a 5m on call time, I would literally have to be sitting at my computer with slack open reading hacker news. Yes, it’s basically the same thing.
      - noodleman 4y ago
        I'm currently on call. A 5 minute response time means to respond to the call out and start working on it. If you're on call, you should have a suitable WFH setup and it should be on standby, so 5 minutes is ample time. It doesn't means you have to have it resolved within 5 minutes of being called out, that would be absurd.
        ok_dad 4y ago
        I understand that, my point is: you're still sitting at home when you could be out doing other things. It then should be paid as regular or OT hours, not 2/3 or 1/3 of regular pay or anything like that.
        sio8ohPi 4y ago
        What if I was going to sit at home playing video games either way?
        ok_dad 4y ago
        Great, you’re not everyone. Don’t assume your life experience is effective else’s! That’s like the golden rule for life.
        willcipriano 4y ago
        Can't join a raid on WoW without pissing off your guild mates halfway through.
        morelisp 4y ago
        Whether this is the case or not depends entirely on how likely a page is. There's always some potential event that could stop you from playing. Empirically, it's more likely my internet connection gets overloaded and dies on a Friday night than I get paged.
        stickfigure 4y ago
        If your job is to sit at home for 95% of your working hours doing whatever you want, getting paid "regular or OT" developer salary, please let me know who your employer is. I'd like to bid on replacing you. I'll do that for 2/3 the price and I won't act entitled to it.
        ipsi 4y ago
        In the EU Working Time Directive, it differentiates between the concept of "On Call Duty" and "Standby Duty," where the former is what this post is about, and the latter is generally reserved for when an employee is required to remain on the premises of their employer (e.g., being on-site overnight to immediately respond to emergencies). The primary difference is that On Call does not count as working time unless you get paged, whereas Standby Duty does count as working time, even if nothing happens. Within the EU, that means that Standby Duty counts against working hours allowed by the EU Working Time Directive and does not count as rest - e.g., the German Arbeitszeitgesetz limits workers to 10 hours per day (hard limit), and requires 11 hours between working periods (some exceptions that I don't believe are relevant here). However, according to recent ECJ decisions[1][2][3], "Standby Duty" is not reserved exclusively for when the employee is required to remain on-premises, and it also depends on the degree to which the freedom of the employee is curtailed, specifically stating in one ruling[2]: > ... > 32 In the third place, and as regards more specifically periods of stand-by time, it is apparent from the case-law of the Court that a period during which no actual activity is carried out by the worker for the benefit of his or her employer does not necessarily constitute a ‘rest period’ for the application of Directive 2003/88. > ... > 36 Second, the Court has held that a period of stand-by time according to a stand-by system must also be classified, in its entirety, as ‘working time’ within the meaning of Directive 2003/88, even if a worker is not required to remain at his or her workplace, where, having regard to the impact, which is objective and very significant, that the constraints imposed on the worker have on the latter’s opportunities to pursue his or her personal and social interests, it differs from a period during which a worker is required simply to be at his or her employer’s disposal inasmuch as it must be possible for the employer to contact him or her (see, to that effect, judgment of 21 February 2018, Matzak, C‑518/15, EU:C:2018:82, paragraphs 63 to 66). And while I'm very definitely not a lawyer, I think it's possible (likely, even) that having to be at a computer and working within 5 minutes of a page, even at 3AM, would constitute significant constraints on the worker and turn it from "On Call" to "Standby Duty", although the exact implications of that will vary from country to country. All of that to say that I think that 5 minutes is absolutely bonkers as an expected response time. If I were subject to that, I wouldn't be able to leave my apartment for the duration I was on call - it takes me a lot more than 5 minutes to get to and from the supermarket or even the coffee place just outside. Even taking out the trash could take > 5 minutes (and with no cell reception, due to being underground). [1] https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/03/flash-alert-2021-085.html https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/03/flash-alert-20... [2] https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=7671D7B558FF73F984F1C8FB2954269F?text=&docid=238662&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=482579 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsession... [3] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:62019CJ0580&from=EN https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... [4] (WARNING: auto-download PDF) https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=6474&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=6474&langId=en
      - ramraj07 4y ago
        It’s not 5 seconds! There are definitely a few activities I do at my home that I can’t drop in a few minutes notice (extended toilet break?) but I I can think of a ton of things I can do that would still let me be able to start working on my pc with a few minutes heads up.
        ok_dad 4y ago
        I have a kid, so sometimes I can't drop what I'm doing. If I am required to be on-call at 5min response, that means I'm hiring a nanny/babysitter. That's what you all don't get here, people have complex lives outside of work and workplaces should not be shortchanging you or I in order to scrimp and save on customer support. If it is important for the application to be up 24/7, the company needs to pay for it at the usual rate!
      - wgjordan 4y ago
        A typical on-call setup would be to have 'calls' sent to a mobile device, that can be acknowledged directly from the mobile. Sitting at a desktop computer with a browser open during an entire on-call period would be extremely unusual.
      - smadge 4y ago
        I’m oncall today for a 5m response SLO service. I went out for lunch and went shopping. I carried my work phone and laptop around with me. I’m not expected to “pull” responsibilities from a chat room; pages are pushed to me. If someone needs to get ahold of me they are supposed to page me, not message me. Edit: that being said, oncall outside of business hours does limit my activities, such as hiking, biking, camping, traveling, and I would of course appreciate 100% time or time and a half.
  - dasil003 4y ago
    Do you sleep at the office for your oncall shift?
    - skeeter2020 4y ago
      they don't work on-call over night.
      - khuey 4y ago
        It's common for firefighters to work 24 hour shifts.
- sidlls 4y ago
  On-call requires you to more or less not plan anything other than being available for work. Sure most of the time nothing goes wrong--but that isn't the constraint, here. The whole point is that something might go wrong and that the person on call must respond within a given window of time (5-15 minutes, generally). That effectively makes even mundane things like going to the grocery store a potential trade-off in favor of work. I definitely consider every hour of the day I'm on call (all 24 of them) as a working hour, and so should every other engineer. Since tech companies get away with not paying for this service, I take off from normal working hours at a rate of 1.5 times the time I spend resolving an on-call alert. I'd rather be compensated with cash for it.
  - ajross 4y ago
    > On-call requires you to more or less not plan anything other than being available for work. No, it requires that you be able to stop whatever it is you're doing and be working on a problem within some latency tolerance (5m and 20m are cited upthread, for example). For most modern datacenter workloads, that can be as simple as "carry your laptop and stay within reliable coverage". While sure, that rules out a lot of activites, most of our lives are spent in that regime already.
    - sidlls 4y ago
      The point is that for work you are required to be available to work at any given time during the shift, no different from being required to work during business hours in the office. It is work, period. Not free time. And it should be compensated accordingly (at least time and a half, when outside of normal business hours).
      - robocat 4y ago
        Do whatever you want that leaves you available to be interrupted is nothing like work during work hours and maybe steal a some minutes to do what you want. There are plenty of things I do in my own time that can be interrupted: books, movies, HN, housework, etcetera.
- NewEntryHN 4y ago
  > the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong Useless expectation as it still steals your freedom.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Not necessarily. I have many friends "in the trades." These are usually unionized, and the compensation can be jaw-dropping. Many of my friends deliberately try to get overtime, which can include "on-call." But the work can be tough, and the salaries -although good- are usually less than most SWEs.
- MereInterest 4y ago
  Being on call varies tremendously depending on the environment. I've been on two different on-calls, and they couldn't have been more different. On-call #1. Averaged one page every week or two. Pages typically resulted from a failed automated process, which was scheduled to avoid running in the wee hours of the night. Most pages could be handled remotely, in about 10-15 minutes. For issues that required going in, even if the root cause couldn't be determined, the system could be brought to a safe state with further troubleshooting done the next day. If there was an overnight issue, you were not expected in until the afternoon, and supervisors would actively tell you to go home and sleep if you were there in the morning. On-call #2. Averaged 3-5 pages per day. Pages occurred at random times during the day or night, with little to no predictability. All pages could be handled remotely, but typically took 1-3 hours to resolve. Issues frequently required creative problem solving, which was expected regardless of time of day. If there was an overnight issue, you were still expected to be on-site for the daily 7:30 AM meeting. There was a drastic different in quality of life between the two on-calls. The first was as you say, an on call with the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong. The second would be more accurately described as a "working nights and weekends rotation", rather than an "on call rotation"
remus 4y ago
That's not the same as on call though, that's working extra hours. With the pay structure described above I assume this is applied outside your normal working hours, where you're not doing anything other than being on call.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  Oncall is working. I expect to bill oncall hours at at least time and a half.
  - Jabbles 4y ago
    It's not. It's ridiculous to expect to charge more than normal work for oncall. And your expectations are misplaced, as TFA shows.
    - R0b0t1 4y ago
      Disagree, as do others. If my movement and activities will be restricted then it is full employment/utilization, not some quasi-employment or utilization. I didn't pull this out of thin air. Someone has conned you into accepting less. I'm sorry.
      - Jabbles 4y ago
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        Thanks for trying, I think some people take pride in living to work and they take offense at the idea they’ve might have been suckers for life. I agree with you fully, on call time should be compensated at the usual rates, including overtime.
        Jabbles 4y ago
        But why? Why do you think oncall should be paid the same as full work? Perhaps you have a different definition of oncall than me, where you expect to be paged once or twice a week, and spend maybe an hour or so fixing it each time? Why would I not charge less for this than real work? It involves much less actual work.
joshuamorton 4y ago
You are paid 2/3 for time spent at home playing with your kids on the weekend. Unless you are working half the weekend, every weekend you are oncall, the tier-1 OCC policy wins over time-and-a-half for time worked.
- thfuran 4y ago
  I'm having a bit of trouble reproducing your results. How exactly are you coming up with 2/3 > 3/2?
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working, so 2/3 of my entire weekend is more than 3/2 of time worked unless I am working 9-5 all day Sunday responding to pages, which no one is. Time and a half for hours worked is only > that 2/3 for time not worked if you're working 50% of the time, which you aren't, at least not regularly.
    - Tao3300 4y ago
      > home cooking dinner What if the call comes right then? Now dinner is fucked. They'd better pay a lot to go messing with my outside life.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        I would not cook a risotto while on call, but most dinners are not "fucked" immediately if you have to walk away with a few minutes notice (esp if you have a partner/roommate, but even if not) This is like the equivalent of saying dinner (or your day) is ruined if someone knocks on your front door unexpectedly. No it's not. And yes, you're getting paid 2/3 of your (large) salary for the possibility of this inconvenience.
        Tao3300 4y ago
leetcrew 4y ago
it's an apples to oranges comparison. not many jobs that pay time and a half for overtime have mid-level ICs making $250k+ before overtime.
- sidlls 4y ago
  The base salary is literally irrelevant to this discussion, which is about compensation for hours worked outside of normal business hours at whatever the rate is.
  - leetcrew 4y ago
    I really don't see how it makes much difference from the employee's perspective. you get paid x to do y over the course of a year. as long as x is reasonable compensation for y, why would you care exactly how it's calculated? put a different way, no rational person would choose $100k + time and a half overtime over a flat $500k to do the same amount of work.
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      > put a different way, no rational person would choose $100k + time and a half overtime over a flat $500k to do the same amount of work. This seems extremely unlikely to ever be the actual two options someone might have. More likely is something like 100k + time and a half OT versus 120k flat rate. And rational people will take the flat rate, because the company will assure them "We don't ask for much Overtime" And by the end of the year you've given them 100k worth of free labour.

“Phenomenal”? Hardly. The base expectation outside of tech is time-and-a-half for each hour over 8 in a day, or 40 in a week.

by sidlls 4y ago

“Phenomenal”? Hardly. The base expectation outside of tech is time-and-a-half for each hour over 8 in a day, or 40 in a week.

dasil003 4y ago

For actual work, not for being on call with the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong

vageli 4y ago
Do firemen also not work given that a considerable amount of their time is spent waiting for a call?
- stickfigure 4y ago
  Professional firefighters spend a lot of their "waiting" time training, writing reports, fixing the apparatus, sharpening shovels, cleaning chainsaws, etc. It isn't the same.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    For a 5m on call time, I would literally have to be sitting at my computer with slack open reading hacker news. Yes, it’s basically the same thing.
    - noodleman 4y ago
      I'm currently on call. A 5 minute response time means to respond to the call out and start working on it. If you're on call, you should have a suitable WFH setup and it should be on standby, so 5 minutes is ample time. It doesn't means you have to have it resolved within 5 minutes of being called out, that would be absurd.
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        I understand that, my point is: you're still sitting at home when you could be out doing other things. It then should be paid as regular or OT hours, not 2/3 or 1/3 of regular pay or anything like that.
        sio8ohPi 4y ago
        What if I was going to sit at home playing video games either way?
        ok_dad 4y ago
        Great, you’re not everyone. Don’t assume your life experience is effective else’s! That’s like the golden rule for life.
        willcipriano 4y ago
        Can't join a raid on WoW without pissing off your guild mates halfway through.
        morelisp 4y ago
        Whether this is the case or not depends entirely on how likely a page is. There's always some potential event that could stop you from playing. Empirically, it's more likely my internet connection gets overloaded and dies on a Friday night than I get paged.
        stickfigure 4y ago
        If your job is to sit at home for 95% of your working hours doing whatever you want, getting paid "regular or OT" developer salary, please let me know who your employer is. I'd like to bid on replacing you. I'll do that for 2/3 the price and I won't act entitled to it.
      - ipsi 4y ago
        In the EU Working Time Directive, it differentiates between the concept of "On Call Duty" and "Standby Duty," where the former is what this post is about, and the latter is generally reserved for when an employee is required to remain on the premises of their employer (e.g., being on-site overnight to immediately respond to emergencies). The primary difference is that On Call does not count as working time unless you get paged, whereas Standby Duty does count as working time, even if nothing happens. Within the EU, that means that Standby Duty counts against working hours allowed by the EU Working Time Directive and does not count as rest - e.g., the German Arbeitszeitgesetz limits workers to 10 hours per day (hard limit), and requires 11 hours between working periods (some exceptions that I don't believe are relevant here). However, according to recent ECJ decisions[1][2][3], "Standby Duty" is not reserved exclusively for when the employee is required to remain on-premises, and it also depends on the degree to which the freedom of the employee is curtailed, specifically stating in one ruling[2]: > ... > 32 In the third place, and as regards more specifically periods of stand-by time, it is apparent from the case-law of the Court that a period during which no actual activity is carried out by the worker for the benefit of his or her employer does not necessarily constitute a ‘rest period’ for the application of Directive 2003/88. > ... > 36 Second, the Court has held that a period of stand-by time according to a stand-by system must also be classified, in its entirety, as ‘working time’ within the meaning of Directive 2003/88, even if a worker is not required to remain at his or her workplace, where, having regard to the impact, which is objective and very significant, that the constraints imposed on the worker have on the latter’s opportunities to pursue his or her personal and social interests, it differs from a period during which a worker is required simply to be at his or her employer’s disposal inasmuch as it must be possible for the employer to contact him or her (see, to that effect, judgment of 21 February 2018, Matzak, C‑518/15, EU:C:2018:82, paragraphs 63 to 66). And while I'm very definitely not a lawyer, I think it's possible (likely, even) that having to be at a computer and working within 5 minutes of a page, even at 3AM, would constitute significant constraints on the worker and turn it from "On Call" to "Standby Duty", although the exact implications of that will vary from country to country. All of that to say that I think that 5 minutes is absolutely bonkers as an expected response time. If I were subject to that, I wouldn't be able to leave my apartment for the duration I was on call - it takes me a lot more than 5 minutes to get to and from the supermarket or even the coffee place just outside. Even taking out the trash could take > 5 minutes (and with no cell reception, due to being underground). [1] https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/03/flash-alert-2021-085.html https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2021/03/flash-alert-20... [2] https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=7671D7B558FF73F984F1C8FB2954269F?text=&docid=238662&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=482579 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsession... [3] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:62019CJ0580&from=EN https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... [4] (WARNING: auto-download PDF) https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=6474&langId=en https://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=6474&langId=en
    - ramraj07 4y ago
      It’s not 5 seconds! There are definitely a few activities I do at my home that I can’t drop in a few minutes notice (extended toilet break?) but I I can think of a ton of things I can do that would still let me be able to start working on my pc with a few minutes heads up.
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        I have a kid, so sometimes I can't drop what I'm doing. If I am required to be on-call at 5min response, that means I'm hiring a nanny/babysitter. That's what you all don't get here, people have complex lives outside of work and workplaces should not be shortchanging you or I in order to scrimp and save on customer support. If it is important for the application to be up 24/7, the company needs to pay for it at the usual rate!
    - wgjordan 4y ago
      A typical on-call setup would be to have 'calls' sent to a mobile device, that can be acknowledged directly from the mobile. Sitting at a desktop computer with a browser open during an entire on-call period would be extremely unusual.
    - smadge 4y ago
      I’m oncall today for a 5m response SLO service. I went out for lunch and went shopping. I carried my work phone and laptop around with me. I’m not expected to “pull” responsibilities from a chat room; pages are pushed to me. If someone needs to get ahold of me they are supposed to page me, not message me. Edit: that being said, oncall outside of business hours does limit my activities, such as hiking, biking, camping, traveling, and I would of course appreciate 100% time or time and a half.
- dasil003 4y ago
  Do you sleep at the office for your oncall shift?
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    they don't work on-call over night.
    - khuey 4y ago
      It's common for firefighters to work 24 hour shifts.
sidlls 4y ago
On-call requires you to more or less not plan anything other than being available for work. Sure most of the time nothing goes wrong--but that isn't the constraint, here. The whole point is that something might go wrong and that the person on call must respond within a given window of time (5-15 minutes, generally). That effectively makes even mundane things like going to the grocery store a potential trade-off in favor of work. I definitely consider every hour of the day I'm on call (all 24 of them) as a working hour, and so should every other engineer. Since tech companies get away with not paying for this service, I take off from normal working hours at a rate of 1.5 times the time I spend resolving an on-call alert. I'd rather be compensated with cash for it.
- ajross 4y ago
  > On-call requires you to more or less not plan anything other than being available for work. No, it requires that you be able to stop whatever it is you're doing and be working on a problem within some latency tolerance (5m and 20m are cited upthread, for example). For most modern datacenter workloads, that can be as simple as "carry your laptop and stay within reliable coverage". While sure, that rules out a lot of activites, most of our lives are spent in that regime already.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    The point is that for work you are required to be available to work at any given time during the shift, no different from being required to work during business hours in the office. It is work, period. Not free time. And it should be compensated accordingly (at least time and a half, when outside of normal business hours).
    - robocat 4y ago
      Do whatever you want that leaves you available to be interrupted is nothing like work during work hours and maybe steal a some minutes to do what you want. There are plenty of things I do in my own time that can be interrupted: books, movies, HN, housework, etcetera.
NewEntryHN 4y ago
> the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong Useless expectation as it still steals your freedom.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Not necessarily. I have many friends "in the trades." These are usually unionized, and the compensation can be jaw-dropping. Many of my friends deliberately try to get overtime, which can include "on-call." But the work can be tough, and the salaries -although good- are usually less than most SWEs.
MereInterest 4y ago
Being on call varies tremendously depending on the environment. I've been on two different on-calls, and they couldn't have been more different. On-call #1. Averaged one page every week or two. Pages typically resulted from a failed automated process, which was scheduled to avoid running in the wee hours of the night. Most pages could be handled remotely, in about 10-15 minutes. For issues that required going in, even if the root cause couldn't be determined, the system could be brought to a safe state with further troubleshooting done the next day. If there was an overnight issue, you were not expected in until the afternoon, and supervisors would actively tell you to go home and sleep if you were there in the morning. On-call #2. Averaged 3-5 pages per day. Pages occurred at random times during the day or night, with little to no predictability. All pages could be handled remotely, but typically took 1-3 hours to resolve. Issues frequently required creative problem solving, which was expected regardless of time of day. If there was an overnight issue, you were still expected to be on-site for the daily 7:30 AM meeting. There was a drastic different in quality of life between the two on-calls. The first was as you say, an on call with the expectation that most of the time nothing will go wrong. The second would be more accurately described as a "working nights and weekends rotation", rather than an "on call rotation"

remus 4y ago

That's not the same as on call though, that's working extra hours. With the pay structure described above I assume this is applied outside your normal working hours, where you're not doing anything other than being on call.

R0b0t1 4y ago
Oncall is working. I expect to bill oncall hours at at least time and a half.
- Jabbles 4y ago
  It's not. It's ridiculous to expect to charge more than normal work for oncall. And your expectations are misplaced, as TFA shows.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    Disagree, as do others. If my movement and activities will be restricted then it is full employment/utilization, not some quasi-employment or utilization. I didn't pull this out of thin air. Someone has conned you into accepting less. I'm sorry.
    - Jabbles 4y ago
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Thanks for trying, I think some people take pride in living to work and they take offense at the idea they’ve might have been suckers for life. I agree with you fully, on call time should be compensated at the usual rates, including overtime.
      - Jabbles 4y ago
        But why? Why do you think oncall should be paid the same as full work? Perhaps you have a different definition of oncall than me, where you expect to be paged once or twice a week, and spend maybe an hour or so fixing it each time? Why would I not charge less for this than real work? It involves much less actual work.

joshuamorton 4y ago

You are paid 2/3 for time spent at home playing with your kids on the weekend. Unless you are working half the weekend, every weekend you are oncall, the tier-1 OCC policy wins over time-and-a-half for time worked.

thfuran 4y ago
I'm having a bit of trouble reproducing your results. How exactly are you coming up with 2/3 > 3/2?
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working, so 2/3 of my entire weekend is more than 3/2 of time worked unless I am working 9-5 all day Sunday responding to pages, which no one is. Time and a half for hours worked is only > that 2/3 for time not worked if you're working 50% of the time, which you aren't, at least not regularly.
  - Tao3300 4y ago
    > home cooking dinner What if the call comes right then? Now dinner is fucked. They'd better pay a lot to go messing with my outside life.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      I would not cook a risotto while on call, but most dinners are not "fucked" immediately if you have to walk away with a few minutes notice (esp if you have a partner/roommate, but even if not) This is like the equivalent of saying dinner (or your day) is ruined if someone knocks on your front door unexpectedly. No it's not. And yes, you're getting paid 2/3 of your (large) salary for the possibility of this inconvenience.
      - Tao3300 4y ago

leetcrew 4y ago

it's an apples to oranges comparison. not many jobs that pay time and a half for overtime have mid-level ICs making $250k+ before overtime.

sidlls 4y ago
The base salary is literally irrelevant to this discussion, which is about compensation for hours worked outside of normal business hours at whatever the rate is.
- leetcrew 4y ago
  I really don't see how it makes much difference from the employee's perspective. you get paid x to do y over the course of a year. as long as x is reasonable compensation for y, why would you care exactly how it's calculated? put a different way, no rational person would choose $100k + time and a half overtime over a flat $500k to do the same amount of work.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    > put a different way, no rational person would choose $100k + time and a half overtime over a flat $500k to do the same amount of work. This seems extremely unlikely to ever be the actual two options someone might have. More likely is something like 100k + time and a half OT versus 120k flat rate. And rational people will take the flat rate, because the company will assure them "We don't ask for much Overtime" And by the end of the year you've given them 100k worth of free labour.