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> It’s as if your brain is actually thousands of brains working simultaneously. I had this epiphany recently while meditating. While trying to make my brain be

> It’s as if your brain is actually thousands of brains working simultaneously. I had this epiphany recently while meditating. While trying to make my brain be quiet, I realized that there were different parts that were being quite vociferous and just had a lot to say at that particular moment, a la the "inner voice" phenomena. In this one case I just let them chatter instead of whacking them into submission. And it was then that I realized that consciousness was probably a fairly large collective, like a jellyfish, rather than a single thread. My innate pattern matching is probably above average. Functionally, something always speaks up and says, "I think I know what that is," with the probable answer, in its estimation at least. I may decide to double check the answer and send it back, soliciting more feedback. But the review process is mostly the same. I postulate that one of my "brains", "columns", or threads is speaking over the tumult with the possible answer. And the larger your collective of better-trained "brains" in this allegory, the better one will perform at these kinds of exercises. In the example given, trying to identify a cup based on limited tactile and visual information, there absolutely would be crosstalk while a consensus is formed within probabilistic certitudes. This is all very much related to the discussion in the past few years about "inner voice", how some have it and some don't, etc. The larger your particular collective, the more chatty your inner voice probably is. These are just my thoughts after empirically observing my brain after developing fairly good control over it over the past few decades.

rileyphone 4y ago
Sounds a bit like Internal Family Systems (IFS), a therapeutic technique where you allow three different aspects of self talk to each other to solve deep seated psychological issues playfully.
abracadaniel 4y ago
I had a college professor who was really big on letting your subconscious mind work on tasks to intuit answers to difficult questions in this same way. Contemplate a problem consciously, then go on a walk or some other calming exercise and have the answer pop into your head. Your mind has been working on it in the background and foregrounds the task once it's done. People often experience something like this while driving, when you just get an instinct that a kid is going to jump out, or that other car isn't going to stop, without having consciously paid attention to it. You slam on the brakes and are left with that feeling that you just KNEW that was going to happen. A part of you did know it, and foregrounded that prediction when enough variables lined up, overriding whatever you were previously thinking about.
- jason-phillips 4y ago
  > Contemplate a problem consciously, then go on a walk or some other calming exercise and have the answer pop into your head. Your mind has been working on it in the background and foregrounds the task once it's done. My current role is that of a principal engineer or quasi-architect and I do exactly this when I need to make a decision regarding which direction we're going to go with something. An environment that is conducive to your subconscious performing well really helps.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    This also works for unconscious problem contemplation, but you have to be ready for it when it happens. In my younger days, I'd run for 30mins outside often times without any music. During those runs, I'd let my thoughts bubble up. It was a welcome chance to let my brain tell me what was bothering it. Sometimes these would be technical problems du jour, but after handling those, nearly always there would be a social problem, usually interpersonal, that would bubble up. It was a very good technique to identify those issues organically. Something about the kinematic state also made it easier to accept, process, and set aside the idea than it would be if I was sitting in a room silently. Nowadays, any time I'm doing anything involving semi-repetitious kinematic activity, I find myself making a choice between listening to something, music or a podcast, or simply nothing and using the time to sort through what ails me. There is a certain mental healing that comes with certain physical activities.
    - jason-phillips 4y ago
      > I'd run for 30mins outside often times without any music. Yep, I'm a lap swimmer. It's amazing what your mind does in that state.
    - agumonkey 4y ago
      My bedroom theory is that all thinking layers are built on top of the mechanical/somatic processing one. And that thinking is basically virtual hunting to put it grossly. We walk in circles when searching solutions. Moving physically might stimulate and bubble up to the abstract layers.
hyperpallium2 4y ago
There's an interesting approach to "consciousness", as what you are aware of, consciously. i.e. attention management. Animals are conscious of their environment in this way. But because humans also have a lot of models going on internally, the mechanism adapts to that (perhaps higher mammals too; I don't recall). This fits nicely with your experience and the submission. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31373806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31373806 I wonder if our "conscious reasoning" is really just attending to a column that does that? Certainly, formal reasoning is a skill that is learnt and practiced - perhaps not so different from a manual skill. We can also suppose pattern-matching on this, to get intuition and hunches. All old ideas, but perhaps neuroanatomy is advancing sufficiently to test them? Also: Minsky's Society of Mind
oceanghost 4y ago
I had a very similar experience while EXTREMELY high. The realization came as follows: "I" am a story I'm telling myself about about a conversation between different drives in my head, and I am free to dis-invite those drives from the conversation, or create new ones.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  This happens to also be the premise of the videogame Disco Elysium. The framing of such drives, and the voices given to each, appears to have been a causal element in many players' own personal growth and development, particularly around addiction, but certainly not exclusively.
Flow 4y ago
> And it was then that I realized that consciousness was probably a fairly large collective, like a jellyfish, rather than a single thread. Given that it's chemical and electrical signals, probably in some semi-hierarchical pattern, isn't that how it "must" be?
- jason-phillips 4y ago
  I think for me, the epiphany was the scale of parallelism, probably thousands of times greater than I previously considered. The article also contrasts between the classical view which looks like a single thread and something with quite a bit more concurrency.
  - Flow 4y ago
    The transfer times, the internal reaction/processing times and the hierarchical structure likely makes this different and more chaotic compared to a big neural net, which is more like a function.
mym1990 4y ago
I was playing a drawing game last week where one person would draw and everyone else would guess what it was as the drawing is appearing. It’s incredible how some people could clearly and confidently guess correctly off of very minor clues, like the legs of a what would be elephant or the hilt of a would be sword. (Keep in mind there are basically scribbles of drawings, not exactly art.)
the_gipsy 4y ago
> I postulate that one of my "brains", "columns", or threads is speaking over the tumult with the possible answer. Your brains are simulating yourself, accepting the majority vote and presenting it to the outside.
- towaway15463 4y ago
  That’s not really the subjective experience though. Why would we feel as though there was an observer who is perceiving both the external and internal world? If you sit quietly you can very quickly be overwhelmed by a tumult of images, thoughts, bits of music, sensations and memories all clamouring for attention. You can consciously direct that spotlight of attention as well. To me this seems more like the self part of the brain is the part responsible for higher order command and coordination of the other parts although not fully in control of everything. Sort of like how the captain of a ship is supposed to be in full control but the crew still have their own wills and desires and perform their jobs autonomously when not being directly ordered to do something.
  - swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
    Imagine a crew member who becomes passive aggressive, or openly hostile. If the captain doesn't address or punish the crew member, his/her bad behavior could affect the rest of the crew. Imagine a captain who becomes unhinged. What could the crew do? I imagine this could be a metaphor for mental illness – although lacking in nuance.
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    > That’s not really the subjective experience though. Why would we feel as though there was an observer who is perceiving both the external and internal world? Sounds useful as a feedback cycle, so that we can imagine/play ourselves (and other persons) in many imaginary situations.
Silverback_VII 4y ago
This "watching your own mind" seems problematic. Either your consciousness is disconnected from your brain(has a brain on its own) like a player playing a game and his virtual character or your mind creates a mirror of yourself so as to be able to watch itself. clearly, in your examples some entity is thinking (and even makes decisions) about your internal chatter and must therefore be more than just pure consciousness. Or is it just an additional layer of chatter?
- coldtea 4y ago
  >clearly, in your examples some entity is thinking (and even makes decisions) about your internal chatter and must therefore be more than just pure consciousness. Or is it just an additional layer of chatter? Doesn't have to be either. A part can watch the whole (even itself perhaps). Like our head+eyes+brain can examine our whole body in a mirror (or just looking at our hands, legs, torso, and so on). If we had more movable eyes (like some animals) an eye could turn around and directly examine the other eye too...
  - phkahler 4y ago
    I was having thoughts about my own behavior one time and realized that the hamster (meta thinker) was getting out of hand. My internal dialog went "we need to tell him to go..." the words "sit in the corner for a while" never came through because it was indeed "him" reaching that conclusion and he took action during the thought. My mind was quite after that. This shit is weird.
t-3 4y ago
Being aphantasic (aphantastic?) and anauralic, the "inner voice" and "mind's eye' stuff really fascinates me. My first thought is always that hearing voices in my head would make me question my sanity, but I suppose you must be used to it if that's your normal mode of cognition? From your description, the different "brains" are not under your control, and you just 'harvest' the fruits of their thoughts?
- alar44 4y ago
  No one "hears voices". Do you read out loud? Probably not, it's the same thing.
  - t-3 4y ago
    Then why do they describe it as an "inner voice"? People have told me they literally feel emotions, and literally see imagery in their heads, so I assumed that they also literally heard their thoughts when they use the same language to describe it. I don't do any of those, so I wouldn't know at all, that's why I asked.
    - alar44 4y ago
      Because that's the closest way to describe it. I'm nearly certain that people who think they don't do this are just being overly pedantic.
      - t-3 4y ago
        I definitely don't visualize. I definitely don't have independent thoughtlines that "chatter" in my head. If we are all doing the same thing, the descriptions of what we're doing should be similar, but they're not.
        sudosysgen 4y ago
        I'm curious, what happens if you were to close your eyes for a 30 minute+? If you start seeing stuff, patterns, etc..., It's similar to how my mind's eye works.

rileyphone 4y ago

Sounds a bit like Internal Family Systems (IFS), a therapeutic technique where you allow three different aspects of self talk to each other to solve deep seated psychological issues playfully.

abracadaniel 4y ago

I had a college professor who was really big on letting your subconscious mind work on tasks to intuit answers to difficult questions in this same way. Contemplate a problem consciously, then go on a walk or some other calming exercise and have the answer pop into your head. Your mind has been working on it in the background and foregrounds the task once it's done. People often experience something like this while driving, when you just get an instinct that a kid is going to jump out, or that other car isn't going to stop, without having consciously paid attention to it. You slam on the brakes and are left with that feeling that you just KNEW that was going to happen. A part of you did know it, and foregrounded that prediction when enough variables lined up, overriding whatever you were previously thinking about.

jason-phillips 4y ago
> Contemplate a problem consciously, then go on a walk or some other calming exercise and have the answer pop into your head. Your mind has been working on it in the background and foregrounds the task once it's done. My current role is that of a principal engineer or quasi-architect and I do exactly this when I need to make a decision regarding which direction we're going to go with something. An environment that is conducive to your subconscious performing well really helps.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  This also works for unconscious problem contemplation, but you have to be ready for it when it happens. In my younger days, I'd run for 30mins outside often times without any music. During those runs, I'd let my thoughts bubble up. It was a welcome chance to let my brain tell me what was bothering it. Sometimes these would be technical problems du jour, but after handling those, nearly always there would be a social problem, usually interpersonal, that would bubble up. It was a very good technique to identify those issues organically. Something about the kinematic state also made it easier to accept, process, and set aside the idea than it would be if I was sitting in a room silently. Nowadays, any time I'm doing anything involving semi-repetitious kinematic activity, I find myself making a choice between listening to something, music or a podcast, or simply nothing and using the time to sort through what ails me. There is a certain mental healing that comes with certain physical activities.
  - jason-phillips 4y ago
    > I'd run for 30mins outside often times without any music. Yep, I'm a lap swimmer. It's amazing what your mind does in that state.
  - agumonkey 4y ago
    My bedroom theory is that all thinking layers are built on top of the mechanical/somatic processing one. And that thinking is basically virtual hunting to put it grossly. We walk in circles when searching solutions. Moving physically might stimulate and bubble up to the abstract layers.

hyperpallium2 4y ago

There's an interesting approach to "consciousness", as what you are aware of, consciously. i.e. attention management. Animals are conscious of their environment in this way. But because humans also have a lot of models going on internally, the mechanism adapts to that (perhaps higher mammals too; I don't recall). This fits nicely with your experience and the submission. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31373806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31373806 I wonder if our "conscious reasoning" is really just attending to a column that does that? Certainly, formal reasoning is a skill that is learnt and practiced - perhaps not so different from a manual skill. We can also suppose pattern-matching on this, to get intuition and hunches. All old ideas, but perhaps neuroanatomy is advancing sufficiently to test them? Also: Minsky's Society of Mind

oceanghost 4y ago

I had a very similar experience while EXTREMELY high. The realization came as follows: "I" am a story I'm telling myself about about a conversation between different drives in my head, and I am free to dis-invite those drives from the conversation, or create new ones.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
This happens to also be the premise of the videogame Disco Elysium. The framing of such drives, and the voices given to each, appears to have been a causal element in many players' own personal growth and development, particularly around addiction, but certainly not exclusively.

Flow 4y ago

> And it was then that I realized that consciousness was probably a fairly large collective, like a jellyfish, rather than a single thread. Given that it's chemical and electrical signals, probably in some semi-hierarchical pattern, isn't that how it "must" be?

jason-phillips 4y ago
I think for me, the epiphany was the scale of parallelism, probably thousands of times greater than I previously considered. The article also contrasts between the classical view which looks like a single thread and something with quite a bit more concurrency.
- Flow 4y ago
  The transfer times, the internal reaction/processing times and the hierarchical structure likely makes this different and more chaotic compared to a big neural net, which is more like a function.

mym1990 4y ago

I was playing a drawing game last week where one person would draw and everyone else would guess what it was as the drawing is appearing. It’s incredible how some people could clearly and confidently guess correctly off of very minor clues, like the legs of a what would be elephant or the hilt of a would be sword. (Keep in mind there are basically scribbles of drawings, not exactly art.)

the_gipsy 4y ago

> I postulate that one of my "brains", "columns", or threads is speaking over the tumult with the possible answer. Your brains are simulating yourself, accepting the majority vote and presenting it to the outside.

towaway15463 4y ago
That’s not really the subjective experience though. Why would we feel as though there was an observer who is perceiving both the external and internal world? If you sit quietly you can very quickly be overwhelmed by a tumult of images, thoughts, bits of music, sensations and memories all clamouring for attention. You can consciously direct that spotlight of attention as well. To me this seems more like the self part of the brain is the part responsible for higher order command and coordination of the other parts although not fully in control of everything. Sort of like how the captain of a ship is supposed to be in full control but the crew still have their own wills and desires and perform their jobs autonomously when not being directly ordered to do something.
- swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
  Imagine a crew member who becomes passive aggressive, or openly hostile. If the captain doesn't address or punish the crew member, his/her bad behavior could affect the rest of the crew. Imagine a captain who becomes unhinged. What could the crew do? I imagine this could be a metaphor for mental illness – although lacking in nuance.
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  > That’s not really the subjective experience though. Why would we feel as though there was an observer who is perceiving both the external and internal world? Sounds useful as a feedback cycle, so that we can imagine/play ourselves (and other persons) in many imaginary situations.

Silverback_VII 4y ago

This "watching your own mind" seems problematic. Either your consciousness is disconnected from your brain(has a brain on its own) like a player playing a game and his virtual character or your mind creates a mirror of yourself so as to be able to watch itself. clearly, in your examples some entity is thinking (and even makes decisions) about your internal chatter and must therefore be more than just pure consciousness. Or is it just an additional layer of chatter?

coldtea 4y ago
>clearly, in your examples some entity is thinking (and even makes decisions) about your internal chatter and must therefore be more than just pure consciousness. Or is it just an additional layer of chatter? Doesn't have to be either. A part can watch the whole (even itself perhaps). Like our head+eyes+brain can examine our whole body in a mirror (or just looking at our hands, legs, torso, and so on). If we had more movable eyes (like some animals) an eye could turn around and directly examine the other eye too...
- phkahler 4y ago
  I was having thoughts about my own behavior one time and realized that the hamster (meta thinker) was getting out of hand. My internal dialog went "we need to tell him to go..." the words "sit in the corner for a while" never came through because it was indeed "him" reaching that conclusion and he took action during the thought. My mind was quite after that. This shit is weird.

t-3 4y ago

Being aphantasic (aphantastic?) and anauralic, the "inner voice" and "mind's eye' stuff really fascinates me. My first thought is always that hearing voices in my head would make me question my sanity, but I suppose you must be used to it if that's your normal mode of cognition? From your description, the different "brains" are not under your control, and you just 'harvest' the fruits of their thoughts?

alar44 4y ago
No one "hears voices". Do you read out loud? Probably not, it's the same thing.
- t-3 4y ago
  Then why do they describe it as an "inner voice"? People have told me they literally feel emotions, and literally see imagery in their heads, so I assumed that they also literally heard their thoughts when they use the same language to describe it. I don't do any of those, so I wouldn't know at all, that's why I asked.
  - alar44 4y ago
    Because that's the closest way to describe it. I'm nearly certain that people who think they don't do this are just being overly pedantic.
    - t-3 4y ago
      I definitely don't visualize. I definitely don't have independent thoughtlines that "chatter" in my head. If we are all doing the same thing, the descriptions of what we're doing should be similar, but they're not.
      - sudosysgen 4y ago
        I'm curious, what happens if you were to close your eyes for a 30 minute+? If you start seeing stuff, patterns, etc..., It's similar to how my mind's eye works.