12 ms·

The government is burying the anti-Asian violent hate crime crisis

109 points by senttoschool 4y ago

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I feel I'm missing some paranoid back story here, but the Asians, Native Americans, Hawaiian's and others are included in the "other" category. Good to see crime continuing its long decline though. Looking up the report the table is a summary of lists the Asian group out seperatly. Seems like the numbers for "Asian" went down and "other" went up so they combined them for the summary. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19.pdf Looks like it declined again in the more recent report https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/criminal-victimization-2020 https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/criminal-victimizat... edit: worth also mentioning, this is crime, not just "hate-crime" data.
- DuskStar 4y ago
  At least in the screenshots posted, "other" was only an option for offenders, not victims.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Yeah, it's a summary and “Asian, Native American, Native Alaskan, 2 or more races, Pacific islander, etc." didn't have very many samples so they grouped them. There's more detail in the reports I linked, both offender and victim. Notably one of the items has this warning note: "! Interpret with caution. Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases, or coefficient of variation is greater than 50%." As this is survey data so like polling they have to multiply responses to get the final answer and once you start subdividing by victim demographic and crime type and offender demographic, you're hitting the limits of what useful info you can extract without it just being random noise.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  I don't see in the 2020 report the same chart, breaking down race for victim and offender. Am I missing it?
  - hasty 4y ago
    It's there (table 5); it's just formatted differently. Presumably the original poster decided not to include it, as it added the footnote "Victims of other races are not shown separately due to small numbers of sample cases", which doesn't fit his framing.
    - throwaway220807 4y ago
    - twic 4y ago
      What document are you talking about here? In the "full report" [1] table 5 is "Rate of victimization reported and not reported to police, by type of crime, 2019–2020", and has nothing about race. This document doesn't contain any equivalent of the cross-tabulations contained in the tweet, as far as i can tell. [1] https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/cv20.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/docu...
      - hasty 4y ago
        The report's been split into two docs. The referenced table is in the Supplemental Statistical Tables by the same authors: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf
ralusek 4y ago
There is almost nothing that bothers me more than the control of information. At least with this issue, however, the reasoning as to why data is being manipulated is so abundantly clear that there is actually virtually no loss of information for the time being. The reality is that Asians largely constitute a problem for the prevailing narrative around racial and ethnic power dynamics. Indians, for example, despite being "brown," and despite being from a "developing" country, are overwhelmingly overrepresented in upper economic echelons. This holds true not just when compared to natively born Americans, but also when controlling for immigration and starting economic conditions. They're also extremely underrepresented in violent crime statistics. Many of these figures remain consistent across the board for Asians living in the US, despite living in a system "designed to explicitly benefit white men." The"model minority myth" is a pathetic manipulation of information in an attempt to account for the narrative-breaking statistics regarding Asian immigrants. When it comes to violence against Asians, there are multiple reasons to muddy the waters, because there are multiple reasons why statistics cause problems. For one, it has been well established that the "racial" group that is overrepresented in violence against Asians is not "white" people. This is clearly a large problem on its own, but it isn't the only problem. The other problem is seeing how disproportionately low violent crime is within the Asian community, even when controlling for economic factors. TL;DR this is unacceptable, but at least for now, completely predictable. In a decade or so, however, the information we had a year ago could be considered out of date, and narratives can be shielded from data.
- karmakurtisaani 4y ago
  It feels a bit wrong to frame many things from the point of view of ethnicity, although that definitely has it's place too. If you look at these groups, you should see that many immigrants from Asia were already well off enough to immigrate, so in some sense mid-to-upper class of their societies. This is not by far the case for native Americans and African Americans, who have been oppressed for generations in America. To view things from the perspective of race just seems to miss a lot of essential substance.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    Many Indian subpopulations have been oppressed for multiple times longer than the United States even existed, yet don't have the same problems. Why do you have such low expectations for a population with 5x the murder rate?
draw_down 4y ago
zephrx1111 4y ago
Racism in 21st century is a misleading term for social problems. It is barking against the wrong tree. Some people, because their education level, would accept and believe whatever their info source pour to them. I’m from China. I know how aggressive the “little-pinks” would behave online and in real world. Unfortunately, for some reason, this population can roughly map to some races. The political industry is using this issue to rake in their own internet. They are preventing this problem to be fixed.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  It is a deliberated, orchestrated effort to bark at the wrong tree which mostly arose after the 99% movement in the (successful) effort to divert.
MerelyMortal 4y ago
Michael Burry is notorius for deleting his tweets, so the HN post link will soon be broken. This is a copy in an archive of his tweets: https://mobile.twitter.com/BurryArchive/status/1556004280695283712 https://mobile.twitter.com/BurryArchive/status/1556004280695... (I think he deletes his tweets to stop scammers from posting crypto scams in the replies.)
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  > Cassandra B.C. Cassandra was the priestess who warned the Trojans about the warriors in the Horse but she was ignored. She was blessed with the gift of true prophecy but also cursed that no one would believe her.
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Why should we feed the troll? The poster has not provided evidence of ill intent and government is not obligated to break down data in every possible way. The link is for violent crime stats in general, not hate crime in particular, maybe there is just not a lot of crime in Asian communities to break that out separately?
rayiner 4y ago
It’s part of a broader effort to manipulate Asians’ perceptions about facts relevant to their self interest. Asians are half as likely to be shot by police than whites, and a third less likely to be incarcerated. The cost-benefit curves for Asians when it comes to policing and criminal justice are markedly different than for other voter groups. And that’s a problem for maintaining the Biden coalition. So what happened when attacks on Asians in progressive cities went up in 2020? Purported “asian” activists put solidarity with white progressives ahead of representing the people they claim to represent: https://www.slowboring.com/p/yang-gang https://www.slowboring.com/p/yang-gang That makes sense when you think about it. People in Chinatowns don’t identify as “AAPI” and have never heard of these organizations. They exist to raise money from white progressives and put Asian faces on their politics: https://asamnews.com/2021/06/17/mackenzie-scott-donates-2-7-billion-dollars-to-286-non-profits-including-asian-american-pacific-islander-focused-groups/ https://asamnews.com/2021/06/17/mackenzie-scott-donates-2-7-...
- tptacek 4y ago
  Everything in this comment seems well-founded and insightful, except and that's a problem for maintaining the Biden coalition. The Biden coalition is actively, overtly pro-policing, for the obvious reason that the majority of the Democratic coalition is pro-policing. Asian Americans are no part at all of the coalition's challenge, as any graph of educational attainment by race will show you; as a demographic, for '22 and '24, they're locked in. Local politics are a different story, but local politics tend to involve changing which people in the party get to hold office, not changing which party holds office. See: San Francisco.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I’m talking about keeping Asians in the fold long term, in a party where the folks who think the SATs are racist and what to defund the police and think corporate boards should have quotas are, even if not yet dominant, ascendant. College educated Asians aren’t similarly situated to college educated whites. Progressivism gives white democrats a vehicle for using institutions to advance their cultural values. Asians meanwhile are on the receiving end of that. When an Asian writes a diversity or hardship essay, they are appealing to white peoples’ views of what that means. Progressives adopting an offensive posture on cultural issues—where they not only want to keep Christian evangelism out of schools, but want to teach Asian kids what Judith Butler thinks about the nature of humans—and republicans learning to frame cultural issues in non-religious terms (like Youngkin) change the script on that.
2-718-281-828 4y ago
Why is Michael Burry worried about this subject?
- itbeho 4y ago
  More people should be worried about racially motivated violence against any group of people.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    More people should also be worried about how news of violence against any group of people is used to manipulate perceptions of those people.
- nocsi 4y ago
  His wife is Asian

109 points by senttoschool 4y ago

I feel I'm missing some paranoid back story here, but the Asians, Native Americans, Hawaiian's and others are included in the "other" category. Good to see crime continuing its long decline though. Looking up the report the table is a summary of lists the Asian group out seperatly. Seems like the numbers for "Asian" went down and "other" went up so they combined them for the summary. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19.pdf Looks like it declined again in the more recent report https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/criminal-victimization-2020 https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/criminal-victimizat... edit: worth also mentioning, this is crime, not just "hate-crime" data.

DuskStar 4y ago
At least in the screenshots posted, "other" was only an option for offenders, not victims.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Yeah, it's a summary and “Asian, Native American, Native Alaskan, 2 or more races, Pacific islander, etc." didn't have very many samples so they grouped them. There's more detail in the reports I linked, both offender and victim. Notably one of the items has this warning note: "! Interpret with caution. Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases, or coefficient of variation is greater than 50%." As this is survey data so like polling they have to multiply responses to get the final answer and once you start subdividing by victim demographic and crime type and offender demographic, you're hitting the limits of what useful info you can extract without it just being random noise.
unethical_ban 4y ago
I don't see in the 2020 report the same chart, breaking down race for victim and offender. Am I missing it?
- hasty 4y ago
  It's there (table 5); it's just formatted differently. Presumably the original poster decided not to include it, as it added the footnote "Victims of other races are not shown separately due to small numbers of sample cases", which doesn't fit his framing.
  - throwaway220807 4y ago
  - twic 4y ago
    What document are you talking about here? In the "full report" [1] table 5 is "Rate of victimization reported and not reported to police, by type of crime, 2019–2020", and has nothing about race. This document doesn't contain any equivalent of the cross-tabulations contained in the tweet, as far as i can tell. [1] https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/cv20.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/docu...
    - hasty 4y ago
      The report's been split into two docs. The referenced table is in the Supplemental Statistical Tables by the same authors: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf

ralusek 4y ago

There is almost nothing that bothers me more than the control of information. At least with this issue, however, the reasoning as to why data is being manipulated is so abundantly clear that there is actually virtually no loss of information for the time being. The reality is that Asians largely constitute a problem for the prevailing narrative around racial and ethnic power dynamics. Indians, for example, despite being "brown," and despite being from a "developing" country, are overwhelmingly overrepresented in upper economic echelons. This holds true not just when compared to natively born Americans, but also when controlling for immigration and starting economic conditions. They're also extremely underrepresented in violent crime statistics. Many of these figures remain consistent across the board for Asians living in the US, despite living in a system "designed to explicitly benefit white men." The"model minority myth" is a pathetic manipulation of information in an attempt to account for the narrative-breaking statistics regarding Asian immigrants. When it comes to violence against Asians, there are multiple reasons to muddy the waters, because there are multiple reasons why statistics cause problems. For one, it has been well established that the "racial" group that is overrepresented in violence against Asians is not "white" people. This is clearly a large problem on its own, but it isn't the only problem. The other problem is seeing how disproportionately low violent crime is within the Asian community, even when controlling for economic factors. TL;DR this is unacceptable, but at least for now, completely predictable. In a decade or so, however, the information we had a year ago could be considered out of date, and narratives can be shielded from data.

karmakurtisaani 4y ago
It feels a bit wrong to frame many things from the point of view of ethnicity, although that definitely has it's place too. If you look at these groups, you should see that many immigrants from Asia were already well off enough to immigrate, so in some sense mid-to-upper class of their societies. This is not by far the case for native Americans and African Americans, who have been oppressed for generations in America. To view things from the perspective of race just seems to miss a lot of essential substance.
- coryrc 4y ago
  Many Indian subpopulations have been oppressed for multiple times longer than the United States even existed, yet don't have the same problems. Why do you have such low expectations for a population with 5x the murder rate?

draw_down 4y ago

zephrx1111 4y ago

Racism in 21st century is a misleading term for social problems. It is barking against the wrong tree. Some people, because their education level, would accept and believe whatever their info source pour to them. I’m from China. I know how aggressive the “little-pinks” would behave online and in real world. Unfortunately, for some reason, this population can roughly map to some races. The political industry is using this issue to rake in their own internet. They are preventing this problem to be fixed.

thriftwy 4y ago
It is a deliberated, orchestrated effort to bark at the wrong tree which mostly arose after the 99% movement in the (successful) effort to divert.

MerelyMortal 4y ago

Michael Burry is notorius for deleting his tweets, so the HN post link will soon be broken. This is a copy in an archive of his tweets: https://mobile.twitter.com/BurryArchive/status/1556004280695283712 https://mobile.twitter.com/BurryArchive/status/1556004280695... (I think he deletes his tweets to stop scammers from posting crypto scams in the replies.)

cuteboy19 4y ago
> Cassandra B.C. Cassandra was the priestess who warned the Trojans about the warriors in the Horse but she was ignored. She was blessed with the gift of true prophecy but also cursed that no one would believe her.

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

Why should we feed the troll? The poster has not provided evidence of ill intent and government is not obligated to break down data in every possible way. The link is for violent crime stats in general, not hate crime in particular, maybe there is just not a lot of crime in Asian communities to break that out separately?

rayiner 4y ago

It’s part of a broader effort to manipulate Asians’ perceptions about facts relevant to their self interest. Asians are half as likely to be shot by police than whites, and a third less likely to be incarcerated. The cost-benefit curves for Asians when it comes to policing and criminal justice are markedly different than for other voter groups. And that’s a problem for maintaining the Biden coalition. So what happened when attacks on Asians in progressive cities went up in 2020? Purported “asian” activists put solidarity with white progressives ahead of representing the people they claim to represent: https://www.slowboring.com/p/yang-gang https://www.slowboring.com/p/yang-gang That makes sense when you think about it. People in Chinatowns don’t identify as “AAPI” and have never heard of these organizations. They exist to raise money from white progressives and put Asian faces on their politics: https://asamnews.com/2021/06/17/mackenzie-scott-donates-2-7-billion-dollars-to-286-non-profits-including-asian-american-pacific-islander-focused-groups/ https://asamnews.com/2021/06/17/mackenzie-scott-donates-2-7-...

tptacek 4y ago
Everything in this comment seems well-founded and insightful, except and that's a problem for maintaining the Biden coalition. The Biden coalition is actively, overtly pro-policing, for the obvious reason that the majority of the Democratic coalition is pro-policing. Asian Americans are no part at all of the coalition's challenge, as any graph of educational attainment by race will show you; as a demographic, for '22 and '24, they're locked in. Local politics are a different story, but local politics tend to involve changing which people in the party get to hold office, not changing which party holds office. See: San Francisco.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I’m talking about keeping Asians in the fold long term, in a party where the folks who think the SATs are racist and what to defund the police and think corporate boards should have quotas are, even if not yet dominant, ascendant. College educated Asians aren’t similarly situated to college educated whites. Progressivism gives white democrats a vehicle for using institutions to advance their cultural values. Asians meanwhile are on the receiving end of that. When an Asian writes a diversity or hardship essay, they are appealing to white peoples’ views of what that means. Progressives adopting an offensive posture on cultural issues—where they not only want to keep Christian evangelism out of schools, but want to teach Asian kids what Judith Butler thinks about the nature of humans—and republicans learning to frame cultural issues in non-religious terms (like Youngkin) change the script on that.

2-718-281-828 4y ago

Why is Michael Burry worried about this subject?

itbeho 4y ago
More people should be worried about racially motivated violence against any group of people.
- rayiner 4y ago
  More people should also be worried about how news of violence against any group of people is used to manipulate perceptions of those people.
nocsi 4y ago
His wife is Asian