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> But cars kills pedestrians they hit. So do bikes. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 > And I m

> But cars kills pedestrians they hit. So do bikes. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 > And I mean, really a lot, the amount of people cars kill is staggering. The amount of kilometers cars run is also staggering. Nobody is saying cars are good, but at least cars don't run on sidewalks, they stay on the roads and pedestrians don't walk in the middle of the road "just because they can". Rules are rules, unless someone thinks that bikers are special and aren't subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow. Unfortunately it's much easier to encounter bikes going the wrong way, biking on pedestrian only zones, zig-zagging between people walking in a park, jumping on the sidewalk or skipping the red light, than cars (in proportion to the number of vehicles circulating)

bannedbybros 4y ago
crote 4y ago
Interestingly, this does not seem to be the case in countries with a well-developed car & cycle infrastructure. It still happens, but it is way rarer than anything involving cars. Comparing it per-kilometer is disingenuous due to the wildly different speed. If you want to make a fairer comparison, you should look at it per travel-hour. And cars definitely do all the things you mention bikes doing wrong - you are probably just so used to it that you don't notice it anymore.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > you should look at it per travel-hour. that would be awesome. if only there was a way to monitor bikes and who runs them... anyway, per hour is even more faulty than per kilometers. nobody drives a bike for 5 hours straight, unless it's a professional competition. > And cars definitely do all the things you mention bikes doing wrong - you are probably just so used to it that you don't notice it anymore. I've never seen a car jumping on the sidewalk intentionally or running high speed among people in a park walking their kids in a stroller, in the almost 50 years I've been on this planet.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    > nobody drives a bike for 5 hours straight Plenty of people do, actually. When I was a bit more overweight and trying to lose it, I used to go for 4-6h long rides around London in the weekends, and 3-4h long rides in the evenings after work. Lots of non-professional cyclists go on cycle tours where they can ride for 10h or more for several days. On top of that, 1h-1h30min long rides to and from work and other places were quite common as they are for many cyclists, and I suspect this is about the same for drivers in big cities.
ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
> Rules are rules, unless someone thinks that bikers are special and aren't subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow. There are indeed different rules for cyclists. There's the Idaho Stop and variants, Paris allows cyclists to go treat red lights as give way. Here in the UK, some one-way roads have a bit of paint to indicate that cyclists can use it in either direction. Personally, I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles and there's better designed junctions that can allow cyclists/e-scooters to go through (with care) whilst the larger vehicles are stopped. Also, zebra crossings are much better for cyclists to use as they don't have to automatically stop (which costs speed, momentum and energy) when there's no-one on it or if they can safely pass behind the person crossing.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Here in the UK, some one-way roads have a bit of paint to indicate that cyclists can use it in either direction. if not, they can't and people on foot need to be sure that nobody is going to come that way, it's not the bikers decision. rules are rules, they ate there for safety reasons, exceptions to the rules, are still rules. > , I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles they are designed to simply make precedences rules obvious. they were invented for railroads. I dream too of a way for people to always be allowed to cross safely, for example using light bridges, for pedestrians except that when they are available, like where I live, bikers use them even if they are explicitly forbidden to any vehicle. this is the bridge, you can clearly see the sign and the blockers https://blog.urbanfile.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-08-07_Turro_Gorla_Martesana_Parco_00034-1024x768.jpg https://blog.urbanfile.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-0...
  - II2II 4y ago
    >> I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles > they are designed to simply make precedences rules obvious. While what you are saying is true, the crosswalk signals that accompany traffic lights have a considerably shorter green than that for automobiles. Traffic lights are also timed to favour the continuous flow of motor vehicle traffic, rather than pedestrians or cyclists. In other words, pedestrians (and, to a lesser degree, cyclists) are considerably disadvantaged by traffic lights. Another consideration for cyclists is that amber lights are timed for motor vehicles. Entering an intersection as the light changes means that a cyclists will usually be leaving the intersection once the light is red. On the other hand, stopping under such circumstances is an excellent way to be struck by an automobile from behind since the driver does have enough time to clear the intersection. Judging from what I've seen on Not Just Bikes, it is possible to design controlled intersections that strikes a more reasonable balance between multiple users. Unfortunately, that is not the case in my neck of the woods yet. If you look at the details of most controlled intersections in my city, it becomes abundantly clear that pedestrian and cyclist safety were (at best) secondary considerations. Some of them are so bad that pedestrians are expected to wait to cross in a blind zone. Things are slowly changing around here, unfortunately it takes a lot of money to undo something that should have been done properly in the first place. NIMBYism also makes change near impossible in many areas, since the loss of as much as one on-street parking spot per block is considered by some to be a more heinous crime than pedestrians being run down. (Thankfully parts of the city are seeing change due to lower vehicle ownership by nearby residents.)
SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
Electric bikes are a new measure that need to be evaluated accordingly, an added complication because it has a motor. But when talking about pedal bikes it is absurd to expect them to follow rules meant to cars. Bicycles are a hybrid between a pedestrian and a vehicle, and can operate in either mode: a slow moving bicycle is a pedestrian and should be able to go on sidewalks and anywhere else a pedestrian is allowed; a fast moving bicycle is a vehicle and should be allowed anywhere a vehicle is allowed. Some countries already have this on mind when creating their rules, so bicycles are allowed to do all that stuff, the others need to change their rules.
boron1006 4y ago
> So do bikes. The comment that you cite doesn’t actually have any supporting citations… > Rules are rules, unless someone thinks that bikers are special and aren't subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow. I would love for enforcement of cyclists who break the law to increase. But that would require actually providing working infrastructure for bikes. You can’t write someone a ticket for not riding in a bike lane when literally every single block someone has parked in the bike lane. If there was a place where every single day on every block, someone parked in the only road for cars in a major city and on a major road artery, this would be a national news story. But this is what happens on weekdays at ~8:45am where I am in LA. Every city also has completely different rules about cycling, which very few people bother to know about. In many cities it’s fine to ride on the sidewalk.
throw0101a 4y ago
> see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 And a reply to that comment states: […] it does not appear to actually show a per-mile statistic. Where are you getting that from? And as the tabloid paper itself states: > Since 2011, bicyclists have injured more than 2,250 pedestrians — including at least seven who died — according to stats from the city Department of Transportation and published reports. So 6 / 2250 = 0.002666666667, or 0.3%. What percentage of car-pedestrian incidents lead to death? I'm guessing it is >1%. > Nobody is saying cars are good, but at least cars don't run on sidewalks, they stay on the roads and pedestrians don't walk in the middle of the road "just because they can". First off, they do not "stay on roads". See "Car smashes into Toronto bike shop and the metaphor is lost on no one": * https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/05/car-smashes-toronto-bike-store-metaphor/ https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/05/car-smashes-toronto-bike... * https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/toronto-motorist-drives-over-bike-lane-sidewalk-and-crashes-into-bicycle-shop https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/toronto-motorist-drives... Also "Why Cars Rarely Crash into Buildings in the Netherlands": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_0DgnJ1uQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_0DgnJ1uQ And pedestrians walk/cross the middle of the road all the time, at least where I live. This has been dubbed "jaywalking" as part of a campaign of anti-pedestrian propaganda in the earlier twentieth century: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking

bannedbybros 4y ago

crote 4y ago

Interestingly, this does not seem to be the case in countries with a well-developed car & cycle infrastructure. It still happens, but it is way rarer than anything involving cars. Comparing it per-kilometer is disingenuous due to the wildly different speed. If you want to make a fairer comparison, you should look at it per travel-hour. And cars definitely do all the things you mention bikes doing wrong - you are probably just so used to it that you don't notice it anymore.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> you should look at it per travel-hour. that would be awesome. if only there was a way to monitor bikes and who runs them... anyway, per hour is even more faulty than per kilometers. nobody drives a bike for 5 hours straight, unless it's a professional competition. > And cars definitely do all the things you mention bikes doing wrong - you are probably just so used to it that you don't notice it anymore. I've never seen a car jumping on the sidewalk intentionally or running high speed among people in a park walking their kids in a stroller, in the almost 50 years I've been on this planet.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > nobody drives a bike for 5 hours straight Plenty of people do, actually. When I was a bit more overweight and trying to lose it, I used to go for 4-6h long rides around London in the weekends, and 3-4h long rides in the evenings after work. Lots of non-professional cyclists go on cycle tours where they can ride for 10h or more for several days. On top of that, 1h-1h30min long rides to and from work and other places were quite common as they are for many cyclists, and I suspect this is about the same for drivers in big cities.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago

> Rules are rules, unless someone thinks that bikers are special and aren't subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow. There are indeed different rules for cyclists. There's the Idaho Stop and variants, Paris allows cyclists to go treat red lights as give way. Here in the UK, some one-way roads have a bit of paint to indicate that cyclists can use it in either direction. Personally, I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles and there's better designed junctions that can allow cyclists/e-scooters to go through (with care) whilst the larger vehicles are stopped. Also, zebra crossings are much better for cyclists to use as they don't have to automatically stop (which costs speed, momentum and energy) when there's no-one on it or if they can safely pass behind the person crossing.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Here in the UK, some one-way roads have a bit of paint to indicate that cyclists can use it in either direction. if not, they can't and people on foot need to be sure that nobody is going to come that way, it's not the bikers decision. rules are rules, they ate there for safety reasons, exceptions to the rules, are still rules. > , I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles they are designed to simply make precedences rules obvious. they were invented for railroads. I dream too of a way for people to always be allowed to cross safely, for example using light bridges, for pedestrians except that when they are available, like where I live, bikers use them even if they are explicitly forbidden to any vehicle. this is the bridge, you can clearly see the sign and the blockers https://blog.urbanfile.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-08-07_Turro_Gorla_Martesana_Parco_00034-1024x768.jpg https://blog.urbanfile.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-0...
- II2II 4y ago
  >> I find that traffic lights are fundamentally designed for motor vehicles > they are designed to simply make precedences rules obvious. While what you are saying is true, the crosswalk signals that accompany traffic lights have a considerably shorter green than that for automobiles. Traffic lights are also timed to favour the continuous flow of motor vehicle traffic, rather than pedestrians or cyclists. In other words, pedestrians (and, to a lesser degree, cyclists) are considerably disadvantaged by traffic lights. Another consideration for cyclists is that amber lights are timed for motor vehicles. Entering an intersection as the light changes means that a cyclists will usually be leaving the intersection once the light is red. On the other hand, stopping under such circumstances is an excellent way to be struck by an automobile from behind since the driver does have enough time to clear the intersection. Judging from what I've seen on Not Just Bikes, it is possible to design controlled intersections that strikes a more reasonable balance between multiple users. Unfortunately, that is not the case in my neck of the woods yet. If you look at the details of most controlled intersections in my city, it becomes abundantly clear that pedestrian and cyclist safety were (at best) secondary considerations. Some of them are so bad that pedestrians are expected to wait to cross in a blind zone. Things are slowly changing around here, unfortunately it takes a lot of money to undo something that should have been done properly in the first place. NIMBYism also makes change near impossible in many areas, since the loss of as much as one on-street parking spot per block is considered by some to be a more heinous crime than pedestrians being run down. (Thankfully parts of the city are seeing change due to lower vehicle ownership by nearby residents.)

SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago

Electric bikes are a new measure that need to be evaluated accordingly, an added complication because it has a motor. But when talking about pedal bikes it is absurd to expect them to follow rules meant to cars. Bicycles are a hybrid between a pedestrian and a vehicle, and can operate in either mode: a slow moving bicycle is a pedestrian and should be able to go on sidewalks and anywhere else a pedestrian is allowed; a fast moving bicycle is a vehicle and should be allowed anywhere a vehicle is allowed. Some countries already have this on mind when creating their rules, so bicycles are allowed to do all that stuff, the others need to change their rules.

boron1006 4y ago

> So do bikes. The comment that you cite doesn’t actually have any supporting citations… > Rules are rules, unless someone thinks that bikers are special and aren't subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow. I would love for enforcement of cyclists who break the law to increase. But that would require actually providing working infrastructure for bikes. You can’t write someone a ticket for not riding in a bike lane when literally every single block someone has parked in the bike lane. If there was a place where every single day on every block, someone parked in the only road for cars in a major city and on a major road artery, this would be a national news story. But this is what happens on weekdays at ~8:45am where I am in LA. Every city also has completely different rules about cycling, which very few people bother to know about. In many cities it’s fine to ride on the sidewalk.

throw0101a 4y ago

> see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32376016 And a reply to that comment states: […] it does not appear to actually show a per-mile statistic. Where are you getting that from? And as the tabloid paper itself states: > Since 2011, bicyclists have injured more than 2,250 pedestrians — including at least seven who died — according to stats from the city Department of Transportation and published reports. So 6 / 2250 = 0.002666666667, or 0.3%. What percentage of car-pedestrian incidents lead to death? I'm guessing it is >1%. > Nobody is saying cars are good, but at least cars don't run on sidewalks, they stay on the roads and pedestrians don't walk in the middle of the road "just because they can". First off, they do not "stay on roads". See "Car smashes into Toronto bike shop and the metaphor is lost on no one": * https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/05/car-smashes-toronto-bike-store-metaphor/ https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/05/car-smashes-toronto-bike... * https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/toronto-motorist-drives-over-bike-lane-sidewalk-and-crashes-into-bicycle-shop https://driving.ca/auto-news/crashes/toronto-motorist-drives... Also "Why Cars Rarely Crash into Buildings in the Netherlands": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_0DgnJ1uQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_0DgnJ1uQ And pedestrians walk/cross the middle of the road all the time, at least where I live. This has been dubbed "jaywalking" as part of a campaign of anti-pedestrian propaganda in the earlier twentieth century: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking