4 ms·

pls read this research, kids absolutely can (falsely) decide that they are trans just because it is considered trendy and because some of their friends came out

by slt2021 4y ago

pls read this research, kids absolutely can (falsely) decide that they are trans just because it is considered trendy and because some of their friends came out as trans (peer pressure). Then after some time they realize they are NOT trans and were falsely led to gender-change surgery, and have to reverse gender reversal surgery https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-021-02163-w.pdf https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-021-021... these are unfortunate consequences to all the media grooming and brainwash happening in mainstream discourse re lgbtq

Defletter 4y ago
> There is no single narrative to explain the experiences of all individuals who detransition and we should take care to avoid painting this population with a broad brush. > Findings about detransition should be used to improve our understanding of gender dysphoria and to better inform the processes of evaluation, counseling, and informed consent for individuals who are contemplating transition. Did your not read your own study?
- slt2021 4y ago
  author provides breakdown further, I encourage you to continue reading this paper [with an open mind]
  - Defletter 4y ago
    I'll read it through [with an open mind] once you have. Since the conclusions you've drawn are thoroughly incongruous with the abstract and conclusion, I gather that you haven't, in fact, read it.
    - slt2021 4y ago
      from the same abstract you skipped over: >>Reasons for detransitioning were varied and included: .. 2) becoming more comfortable identifying as their natal sex (60.0%); so 60 out of 100 patients who gender transitioned were NOT in fact transgenders and were falsely led towards gender transition surgery >>The majority (55.0%) felt that they did not receive an adequate evaluation from a doctor or mental health professional before starting transition This matches the parents' pushback argument that gender transition is being prescribed and promoted left and right, which leads to medical mistakes
      - Defletter 4y ago
        It's worth remembering that this is a study of de-transitioners, not of the trans community as a whole. Having read the study [with an open mind], you ought to remember the table on page ten which lists how the participants detransitioned. You'd remember that they detransitioned overwhelmingly by... wait for it... no longer taking their cross-sex hormones (95%) and returning to their previous pronouns (63%). This is a far cry from your moral panic about children being led to the surgeon's knife. Only 14% of the participants began hormonal detransition and only 9% began surgical detransition. Given that detransitioners are already a small minority of trans people, who are themselves already a small minority of society, this feels less like splitting hairs and more like splitting atoms. I simply cannot fathom how this study is enough for you to be spamming it to everyone. This study isn't spicy anti-trans statistical data. It's data that suggests that evaluation for medical transition needs to be improved. Indeed, as already mentioned, that's the explicit goal of the study... and yet you're here pretending like it's some gotcha moment.
        slt2021 4y ago
        So you do agree that there is a chance of medical mistake in diagnosing/prescribing Gender Dysphoria, just like medical mistakes happen with any other condition? And a lot of these mistakes happen due to social pressure (including pressure from medical professionals who should know better, but didnt't because opposing research is being canceled). >>Clinicians, partners, friends, and society were named as sources that applied pressure to transition, as seen in the following quotes: >> - My gender therapist acted like it [transition] was a panacea for everything; >> - [My] [d]octor pushed drugs and surgery at every visit >> - I was dating a trans woman and she framed our relationship in a way that was contingent on my being trans >> - A couple of later trans friends kept insisting that I needed to stop delaying things >> - [My] best friend told me repeatedly that it [transition] was best for me I dont deny that there is selection bias in Mrs. Littmann's research. But if I am parent and have only one child, I really dont care about percentage chances, and I simply dont want to play in this dumb lottery of wrongly identifying GD only to reverse it later. If current medical understanding is wrong, something needs to be done to improve medical approach. and current mainstream consensus doesn't help at all
- spoils19 4y ago
  > Did your not read your own study? This discourse is not helpful, please read the guidelines for commenting :> > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
  - Defletter 4y ago
    My apologies, from now on I'll only say that someone unintentionally mislead Parlia.. I mean, that their study actually said X, Y, and Z.
xbar 4y ago
I think you are right to highlight this point. It seems we are in early days in the science of trans-prepubescents and trans-adolescents. Different from LGBQ, trans decisions are sometimes medical and hard to reverse. I am not surprised that parents in a less liberal community would be allergic to any risk of their children becoming trans. Censorship is abhorrent, probably even to that community, but they are in the fog of culture war and go to battle with the pathetic weapons they have.
orwin 4y ago
That's exactly why the LGBT community pushed for the term 'non binary'. People mock a lot this term, but it's raison d'être is teens or young adults not feeling like the gender they are for multiple reason, one of which being attracted by the same sex, and one which 12 years ago was considered by my LGBTQ friends as the principal: feeling like gender stereotypes from your parents/environment crushed you. Your dad calling you 'not man enough' or your mom saying 'man up's when you were sad. Your mom calling you a tomboy and unattractive, forcing you to wear dresses and heels. With the ease of gender change surgery, this term is even more needed than before imho. And i feel like for an anglo country who worship Hamilton, this is weird to be against more information tbh.
- slt2021 4y ago
  do you believe in Darwin's theory? do non-binary genders exist among primates? non-binary (like the rest of 72 genders) is just a social construct, created fairly recently, it has no connection to biology of homo sapiens as biological species or any foundation in science. Only people's emotions/human feelings are the main basis for 72 genders that are now being told to kids left and right, together with ridiculous dose of hormone blockers
  - Defletter 4y ago
    Well, last I heard, the going theory is that other animals, other primates, don't have gender whatsoever. They have biological sex, of course, but no concept of gender: no concept that women should be in the kitchen can men should be bringing home to bacon, etc, etc, tired stereotypes that convey the point, etc. Clownfish will literally transition from male to female, but there's yet no research as of yet to suggest that Clownfish start wearing heals. You are correct, gender is a social construct, so is motherhood and fatherhood and so on, but that doesn't mean those things aren't real, don't mean anything, or impact our lives or aren't deeply and sincerely held identities.
    - slt2021 4y ago
      If it is not scientific, but social construct, it means it can be accepted or rejected. So should we as a society universally accept all social constructs? Or should it be accepted on opt-in basis? I can only recognize universal nature laws, because I cant fight physics, and recognize legal laws, because they are enforced. But social constructs - it is not 100% clear to whom they are applicable and whether one can selectively reject certain social constructs. If a woman can reject social construct that she must be housewife and take care of kids, then by the same logic anyone can selectively reject any trendy social constructs like having gender #69

Defletter 4y ago

> There is no single narrative to explain the experiences of all individuals who detransition and we should take care to avoid painting this population with a broad brush. > Findings about detransition should be used to improve our understanding of gender dysphoria and to better inform the processes of evaluation, counseling, and informed consent for individuals who are contemplating transition. Did your not read your own study?

slt2021 4y ago
author provides breakdown further, I encourage you to continue reading this paper [with an open mind]
- Defletter 4y ago
  I'll read it through [with an open mind] once you have. Since the conclusions you've drawn are thoroughly incongruous with the abstract and conclusion, I gather that you haven't, in fact, read it.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    from the same abstract you skipped over: >>Reasons for detransitioning were varied and included: .. 2) becoming more comfortable identifying as their natal sex (60.0%); so 60 out of 100 patients who gender transitioned were NOT in fact transgenders and were falsely led towards gender transition surgery >>The majority (55.0%) felt that they did not receive an adequate evaluation from a doctor or mental health professional before starting transition This matches the parents' pushback argument that gender transition is being prescribed and promoted left and right, which leads to medical mistakes
    - Defletter 4y ago
      It's worth remembering that this is a study of de-transitioners, not of the trans community as a whole. Having read the study [with an open mind], you ought to remember the table on page ten which lists how the participants detransitioned. You'd remember that they detransitioned overwhelmingly by... wait for it... no longer taking their cross-sex hormones (95%) and returning to their previous pronouns (63%). This is a far cry from your moral panic about children being led to the surgeon's knife. Only 14% of the participants began hormonal detransition and only 9% began surgical detransition. Given that detransitioners are already a small minority of trans people, who are themselves already a small minority of society, this feels less like splitting hairs and more like splitting atoms. I simply cannot fathom how this study is enough for you to be spamming it to everyone. This study isn't spicy anti-trans statistical data. It's data that suggests that evaluation for medical transition needs to be improved. Indeed, as already mentioned, that's the explicit goal of the study... and yet you're here pretending like it's some gotcha moment.
      - slt2021 4y ago
        So you do agree that there is a chance of medical mistake in diagnosing/prescribing Gender Dysphoria, just like medical mistakes happen with any other condition? And a lot of these mistakes happen due to social pressure (including pressure from medical professionals who should know better, but didnt't because opposing research is being canceled). >>Clinicians, partners, friends, and society were named as sources that applied pressure to transition, as seen in the following quotes: >> - My gender therapist acted like it [transition] was a panacea for everything; >> - [My] [d]octor pushed drugs and surgery at every visit >> - I was dating a trans woman and she framed our relationship in a way that was contingent on my being trans >> - A couple of later trans friends kept insisting that I needed to stop delaying things >> - [My] best friend told me repeatedly that it [transition] was best for me I dont deny that there is selection bias in Mrs. Littmann's research. But if I am parent and have only one child, I really dont care about percentage chances, and I simply dont want to play in this dumb lottery of wrongly identifying GD only to reverse it later. If current medical understanding is wrong, something needs to be done to improve medical approach. and current mainstream consensus doesn't help at all
spoils19 4y ago
> Did your not read your own study? This discourse is not helpful, please read the guidelines for commenting :> > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
- Defletter 4y ago
  My apologies, from now on I'll only say that someone unintentionally mislead Parlia.. I mean, that their study actually said X, Y, and Z.

xbar 4y ago

I think you are right to highlight this point. It seems we are in early days in the science of trans-prepubescents and trans-adolescents. Different from LGBQ, trans decisions are sometimes medical and hard to reverse. I am not surprised that parents in a less liberal community would be allergic to any risk of their children becoming trans. Censorship is abhorrent, probably even to that community, but they are in the fog of culture war and go to battle with the pathetic weapons they have.

orwin 4y ago

That's exactly why the LGBT community pushed for the term 'non binary'. People mock a lot this term, but it's raison d'être is teens or young adults not feeling like the gender they are for multiple reason, one of which being attracted by the same sex, and one which 12 years ago was considered by my LGBTQ friends as the principal: feeling like gender stereotypes from your parents/environment crushed you. Your dad calling you 'not man enough' or your mom saying 'man up's when you were sad. Your mom calling you a tomboy and unattractive, forcing you to wear dresses and heels. With the ease of gender change surgery, this term is even more needed than before imho. And i feel like for an anglo country who worship Hamilton, this is weird to be against more information tbh.

slt2021 4y ago
do you believe in Darwin's theory? do non-binary genders exist among primates? non-binary (like the rest of 72 genders) is just a social construct, created fairly recently, it has no connection to biology of homo sapiens as biological species or any foundation in science. Only people's emotions/human feelings are the main basis for 72 genders that are now being told to kids left and right, together with ridiculous dose of hormone blockers
- Defletter 4y ago
  Well, last I heard, the going theory is that other animals, other primates, don't have gender whatsoever. They have biological sex, of course, but no concept of gender: no concept that women should be in the kitchen can men should be bringing home to bacon, etc, etc, tired stereotypes that convey the point, etc. Clownfish will literally transition from male to female, but there's yet no research as of yet to suggest that Clownfish start wearing heals. You are correct, gender is a social construct, so is motherhood and fatherhood and so on, but that doesn't mean those things aren't real, don't mean anything, or impact our lives or aren't deeply and sincerely held identities.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    If it is not scientific, but social construct, it means it can be accepted or rejected. So should we as a society universally accept all social constructs? Or should it be accepted on opt-in basis? I can only recognize universal nature laws, because I cant fight physics, and recognize legal laws, because they are enforced. But social constructs - it is not 100% clear to whom they are applicable and whether one can selectively reject certain social constructs. If a woman can reject social construct that she must be housewife and take care of kids, then by the same logic anyone can selectively reject any trendy social constructs like having gender #69