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The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

wernercd 4y ago
and it's still more important to have free speech because who decides "truth" and "lie"... and what happens when those in power switch and the other side decides. Want Biden or Obama to have some power? Are you going to be okay with Bush or Trump gets that power?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- krapp 4y ago
  Political parties and Presidents don't decide what truth is and what lies are in the United States, or other free countries.
  - adamredwoods 4y ago
    Yes they can. They cannot enforce their decisions directly. They can certainly influence, and perhaps even form alliances that propagate those decisions. With those alliances, some decisions can be made into law.
    - krapp 4y ago
      If they can't enforce their decisions, they're not really making decisions. GP was implying that regulating speech meant "truth" and "lies" would depend entirely on which political party happened to be in power at the time. But we already live in a society in which speech is regulated, and that doesn't happen. Trump tried as hard as he could, but every lie he spouted was still pushed against, much to his dismay. He convinced people who already bought into the party line, but no one else was forced into accepting or spreading his point of view. Freedom of speech still exists where debate, conflict and truth discovery can still occur. Regulating speech mediates free speech, but doesn't have to eliminate it. The marketplace of ideas can accept that some ideas are not worth keeping.
      - johnmosermd 4y ago
        > If they can't enforce their decisions, they're not really making decisions. Why are you talking? For that matter, why do we have media, or even schools?
- LBJsPNS 4y ago
  BE AFRAID!!! BE VERY AFRAID!!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bandyaboot 4y ago
  I don’t think I suggested granting a particular power to the president. I just engaged in a discussion on the nature of truth and lies. I would suggest that you at least try to put yourself in the position of these parents when thinking about this topic (as impossible as that may be). Imagine having your child murdered then having this waste of life make up vicious lies about you and your dead child.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
speakfreely 4y ago
I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.
- adventured 4y ago
  - pstuart 4y ago
    It was an attempted insurrection -- there's plenty of evidence to support that.
    - bandyaboot 4y ago
      It was an actual realized insurrection. Were you meaning to say it was an attempted coup?
      - pstuart 4y ago
        Yes, it was an attempted coup. I fear the next one will be better executed.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  The solution to that is not suppression of the idea(s), in fact attempts to suppress anyone talking about the election only serve as fuel to expand the number of people that believe it, as "what are they trying to hide" becomes of the main part of the story. Greater, and Actual Transparency combined with a trust worthily network of news outlets would go along way to shut down these types of discussions Sadly we have neither government nor really judicial transparency in any meaningful way, and we are at a point in time where trust in "news" is lower than trust in congress... Want to tone down the number of people that believe in conspiracy... More Facts, less Spin...

wernercd 4y ago

and it's still more important to have free speech because who decides "truth" and "lie"... and what happens when those in power switch and the other side decides. Want Biden or Obama to have some power? Are you going to be okay with Bush or Trump gets that power?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
krapp 4y ago
Political parties and Presidents don't decide what truth is and what lies are in the United States, or other free countries.
- adamredwoods 4y ago
  Yes they can. They cannot enforce their decisions directly. They can certainly influence, and perhaps even form alliances that propagate those decisions. With those alliances, some decisions can be made into law.
  - krapp 4y ago
    If they can't enforce their decisions, they're not really making decisions. GP was implying that regulating speech meant "truth" and "lies" would depend entirely on which political party happened to be in power at the time. But we already live in a society in which speech is regulated, and that doesn't happen. Trump tried as hard as he could, but every lie he spouted was still pushed against, much to his dismay. He convinced people who already bought into the party line, but no one else was forced into accepting or spreading his point of view. Freedom of speech still exists where debate, conflict and truth discovery can still occur. Regulating speech mediates free speech, but doesn't have to eliminate it. The marketplace of ideas can accept that some ideas are not worth keeping.
    - johnmosermd 4y ago
      > If they can't enforce their decisions, they're not really making decisions. Why are you talking? For that matter, why do we have media, or even schools?
LBJsPNS 4y ago
BE AFRAID!!! BE VERY AFRAID!!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bandyaboot 4y ago
I don’t think I suggested granting a particular power to the president. I just engaged in a discussion on the nature of truth and lies. I would suggest that you at least try to put yourself in the position of these parents when thinking about this topic (as impossible as that may be). Imagine having your child murdered then having this waste of life make up vicious lies about you and your dead child.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

speakfreely 4y ago

I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.

adventured 4y ago
- pstuart 4y ago
  It was an attempted insurrection -- there's plenty of evidence to support that.
  - bandyaboot 4y ago
    It was an actual realized insurrection. Were you meaning to say it was an attempted coup?
    - pstuart 4y ago
      Yes, it was an attempted coup. I fear the next one will be better executed.
phpisthebest 4y ago
The solution to that is not suppression of the idea(s), in fact attempts to suppress anyone talking about the election only serve as fuel to expand the number of people that believe it, as "what are they trying to hide" becomes of the main part of the story. Greater, and Actual Transparency combined with a trust worthily network of news outlets would go along way to shut down these types of discussions Sadly we have neither government nor really judicial transparency in any meaningful way, and we are at a point in time where trust in "news" is lower than trust in congress... Want to tone down the number of people that believe in conspiracy... More Facts, less Spin...