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Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like main

Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560

amelius 4y ago
Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      Why would they? England itself is only a minor part of the British Isles. They would however have a chance of being part of a broader Commonwealth of Nations, were it not for a troublesome Declaration they circulated in 1776. This is why claims to "independence" should not be made carelessly, and why official U.S. policy is especially careful to avoid them wrt. Taipei.
      - CogitoCogito 4y ago
        You said that Taiwan's language and writing system made them Chinese. By that reasoning, the US would be English. But thanks for clarifying that sharing a language and writing system with another country, doesn't necessarily make you part of that country.
        zozbot234 4y ago
        But this is not about "being part of a country"; it's first and foremost about sharing a common culture and history. Facile claims to "Taiwan independence" that ignore these nuances are tantamount to a denial of this shared past and common identity that is part of the continuing lived experience of many people in Taiwan. They are oppressive, dehumanizing and hurt the feelings of the Chinese people who live on the island.
        CogitoCogito 4y ago
        What's the relevance of any of this? You originally said that Taiwan's language and writing system made them Chinese. I've repeatedly demonstrated that such reasoning is nonsense. There may be other arguments that Taiwan is Chinese, but I haven't really given you my thoughts on those (hypothetical) arguments.
        Apfel 4y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_Chinese_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_...
        smoldesu 4y ago
        "Dehumanizing" to the Chinese people? You know, I was under the impression that total government surveillance, in-person monitoring of religious minority communities and regular internet censorship was the most dehumanizing part. Whatever the CCP calls 'oppressive' should be taken with a grain of salt. China and Taiwan can share a history, but that doesn't entitle them to reconciling their differences. Much like the other commenters brought up, establishing Taiwanese independence is obviously the smartest path from here. China has had their feelings hurt for almost a century over Taiwan. Entire generations of humans have lived and died in the time Taiwan has enjoyed sovereignty. China knows it's time to let go, but they can't look weak or suffer the same fate as Russia. Continuing to threaten Taiwan is just part of their political-industrial complex, nothing more.
spookie 4y ago
A link [1] referenced in your supporting evidence suggests it is but a remnant of the Chinese Civil War. But even then, Taiwan's constitution does state that a vote may be held in order to change such territorial claims. This only made it in the 7th revision, in 2004 [2]. I would also like to make it clear that mainland China is the only one that has ever put these claims (except for Mongolia) into practice. [1] https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05/18/2003757579 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05... [2] https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93 https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93
- eevilspock 4y ago
  2004? That's nearly 20 years ago. Taiwan until around 1990 froze into place representatives from all the mainland provinces in its legislature, thereby effectively nullifying the democratic voice of the people who lived on the island. Taiwan's "外生人", those born on the mainland and who fled to Taiwan at the end of the civil war, took over the government, suppressing the views and interests of the "Taiwanese", the Chinese who speak the local Chinese dialect and who lived there before. You know, kinda like what Russia wants to do with Ukraine. The Taiwanese themselves previously took over the island, suppressing the view and interests of the aborigine people, who are Austronesian, not Chinese. Again, kinda like what Russia wants to do with Ukraine. So if we're going to talk about democracy and freedom and sovereignty, we need to be less tribal/self-serving about it and more honest. If we're going to castigate China, are you also going to castigate America about Hawaii? If not, then I don't think that's honest. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I recommend you read about what Native Hawaiians feel about America. There's also Puerto Rico. And the US taking the Southwest form Mexico, and then closing its border, treating migrant workers from south of the border like shit, all the while looking the other way as we can make them work for below minimum wage and no protections all so we can have cheaper produce and have cheaper restaurants and all the other things that depend on cheap brown labor. We can go further and talk about Europeans taking it all from the indigenous people. I'm not defending China or Russia. I'm pointing out the huge amount of self-serving cherry-picking and hypocrisy.
  - rjzzleep 4y ago

amelius 4y ago

Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.

zozbot234 4y ago
So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Why would they? England itself is only a minor part of the British Isles. They would however have a chance of being part of a broader Commonwealth of Nations, were it not for a troublesome Declaration they circulated in 1776. This is why claims to "independence" should not be made carelessly, and why official U.S. policy is especially careful to avoid them wrt. Taipei.
    - CogitoCogito 4y ago
      You said that Taiwan's language and writing system made them Chinese. By that reasoning, the US would be English. But thanks for clarifying that sharing a language and writing system with another country, doesn't necessarily make you part of that country.
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        But this is not about "being part of a country"; it's first and foremost about sharing a common culture and history. Facile claims to "Taiwan independence" that ignore these nuances are tantamount to a denial of this shared past and common identity that is part of the continuing lived experience of many people in Taiwan. They are oppressive, dehumanizing and hurt the feelings of the Chinese people who live on the island.
        CogitoCogito 4y ago
        What's the relevance of any of this? You originally said that Taiwan's language and writing system made them Chinese. I've repeatedly demonstrated that such reasoning is nonsense. There may be other arguments that Taiwan is Chinese, but I haven't really given you my thoughts on those (hypothetical) arguments.
        Apfel 4y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_Chinese_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_...
        smoldesu 4y ago
        "Dehumanizing" to the Chinese people? You know, I was under the impression that total government surveillance, in-person monitoring of religious minority communities and regular internet censorship was the most dehumanizing part. Whatever the CCP calls 'oppressive' should be taken with a grain of salt. China and Taiwan can share a history, but that doesn't entitle them to reconciling their differences. Much like the other commenters brought up, establishing Taiwanese independence is obviously the smartest path from here. China has had their feelings hurt for almost a century over Taiwan. Entire generations of humans have lived and died in the time Taiwan has enjoyed sovereignty. China knows it's time to let go, but they can't look weak or suffer the same fate as Russia. Continuing to threaten Taiwan is just part of their political-industrial complex, nothing more.

spookie 4y ago

A link [1] referenced in your supporting evidence suggests it is but a remnant of the Chinese Civil War. But even then, Taiwan's constitution does state that a vote may be held in order to change such territorial claims. This only made it in the 7th revision, in 2004 [2]. I would also like to make it clear that mainland China is the only one that has ever put these claims (except for Mongolia) into practice. [1] https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05/18/2003757579 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05... [2] https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93 https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93

eevilspock 4y ago
2004? That's nearly 20 years ago. Taiwan until around 1990 froze into place representatives from all the mainland provinces in its legislature, thereby effectively nullifying the democratic voice of the people who lived on the island. Taiwan's "外生人", those born on the mainland and who fled to Taiwan at the end of the civil war, took over the government, suppressing the views and interests of the "Taiwanese", the Chinese who speak the local Chinese dialect and who lived there before. You know, kinda like what Russia wants to do with Ukraine. The Taiwanese themselves previously took over the island, suppressing the view and interests of the aborigine people, who are Austronesian, not Chinese. Again, kinda like what Russia wants to do with Ukraine. So if we're going to talk about democracy and freedom and sovereignty, we need to be less tribal/self-serving about it and more honest. If we're going to castigate China, are you also going to castigate America about Hawaii? If not, then I don't think that's honest. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I recommend you read about what Native Hawaiians feel about America. There's also Puerto Rico. And the US taking the Southwest form Mexico, and then closing its border, treating migrant workers from south of the border like shit, all the while looking the other way as we can make them work for below minimum wage and no protections all so we can have cheaper produce and have cheaper restaurants and all the other things that depend on cheap brown labor. We can go further and talk about Europeans taking it all from the indigenous people. I'm not defending China or Russia. I'm pointing out the huge amount of self-serving cherry-picking and hypocrisy.
- rjzzleep 4y ago