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This twitter thread might be a bit extreme, but it raises interesting points ( https://twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083?lang=en https://twitter.c

This twitter thread might be a bit extreme, but it raises interesting points ( https://twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083?lang=en https://twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083?lang... ). Basically, if you are not allowed to spend money (transact) then you are really not able to exercise your other rights. And if everything was cashless there is an actual risk of Gov or BigBank having the power to stop you transacting completely. It has happened in 1st world countries like Canada already, and without a trial or anything as per thread. Granted, it was kind of an emergency situation, but while I'd love to go cashless (I really really want to), this kind of thing makes me steer back into supporting the opposite side of the argument.

anovikov 4y ago
I'd raise the opposite point: for every reaction there is counterreaction. Going cashless will inevitably become a major boost for crypto and will greatly help detach crypto from fiat, becoming a major facilitator of illicit transactions of all kinds, to the point that people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable, destroying the very notion of law and order. People should be permitted to do lesser evil (go to the corner and buy a joint for cash) lest they will build a workaround so good there will be no reason to stop in expanding it's use until it consumes the very fabric of society.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Going cashless will inevitably become a major boost for crypto These are unlinked. Demographics using crypto loosely correlate with those going cashless. Cashless countries even more loosely correlate with crypto adoption. > people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable We have a long tradition of this with our 21-year drinking age. People can differentiate between the laws they can break and the ones they shouldn’t. In any case, arguing crypto will undermine state power ignores the millennia of commodity money.
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    > We have a long tradition of this with our 21-year drinking age. People can differentiate between the laws they can break and the ones they shouldn’t. Well, not really. It was originally 18 to drink. Thanks to the federal government linking interstate funds to a requirement states support 21 drinking age is how they did that. In some states, even 16 could drink beer prior to the feds fucking things up.
    - 4ggr0 4y ago
      > In some states, even 16 could drink beer prior to the feds fucking things up. That's one thing I always found funny when looking at the US as a european. When I had my first legal beer as a sixteen year old I remembered that I would only be allowed to do this in the US in five more years. Of course the actual first beer was drank when I was fifteen. What I always wondered - In countries where beer is allowed at sixteen, people usually try it when fifteen, because doing forbidden things is obviously cool during this age. But in the US, do kids start illegaly drinking when they're twenty, or do y'all also start experimenting earlier? EDIT: Also love the fact that 18 year olds in the US can join the military, yet aren't allowed to drink a beer until three years later.
      - cnasc 4y ago
        > In countries where beer is allowed at sixteen, people usually try it when fifteen, because doing forbidden things is obviously cool Pretty similar in the US. I didn’t try drinking at that age, but many high schoolers will.
        4ggr0 4y ago
        I see, that does make sense. American kids must feel even more badass then, considering that they're doing something 5-6 years earlier than they'd be allowed to :)
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        18 year olds in the military can’t buy beer, absolutely nobody cares if they drink it or not. In the whole time I was in not a single person got in trouble for the drinking but for whatever stupid things they did while drinking. And it’s because they make you follow the local laws, when we were down in Panama the officers all chipped in and bought us a shitton of beer on our last night there. There was another time at Ft Bragg where they were like “anyone not over 21 can’t drink” and then just walked away leaving us with another shitton of beer.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >to the point that people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable, destroying the very notion of law and order. This is already the case in the tax brackets that are too far down there for most of HN to have any familiarity with. People there don't just think "oh it's the law, better blindly lick the boot" when they encounter a legal requirement. They think "what's the fine, what's the enforcement mechanism, is this a serious law or just a suggestion I can skirt as long as I am reasonable?". If you never leave the "good school district" you bought into you'd never know.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    This also happens above the HN tax bracket too. It's only the professional class that seems to follow the rules like this.
    - anovikov 4y ago
      In US, maybe. One thing i love about Europe is that people here tend to really follow law to the letter, and actually know it. And consult with lawyers in any case that seems in doubt. When vast majority of people are like that, it's no longer "boot licking", it's for everyone's benefit. It's only stupid when everyone else but you ignores the law.
      - fenesiistvan 4y ago
        Haha. Where are you living? :) (I am in Romania, still EU)
      - throwaway675309 4y ago
        That depends on the laws we're talking about. There is such a thing as a conscientious objector which you seem to not be familiar with, see Aaron Schwartz for a prime example.
keepit2urself 4y ago
> I'd love to go cashless then go cashless & don't encroach nor impose your wishes on others
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >then go cashless & don't encroach nor impose your wishes on others Our current society has too high a fraction of pro-jackboot types in it for that to be a tractable solution.
mikewarot 4y ago
> Granted, it was kind of an emergency situation, No, it wasn't an emergency, it was a bunch of angry truckers, outdoors. Cutting off banking to some of those who supported them with a donation was a direct political threat to everyone, a highly authoritarian response.
- redanddead 4y ago
  is there any scenario where you would change your mind about the topic?
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Why would they need to change their mind?
    - redanddead 4y ago
      It's more about finding the logic of the argument
collegeburner 4y ago
I would not it put it past governments to shut down some types of payments if there was another lockdown. "Oh sorry it doesn't look like that's an essential business wait just 14 days!"
ksec 4y ago
And I thought it may be worth pointing out, since 2014/2015, and all the way to 2018/2019. 95%+ HN comments were against cash. In the year where Apple Pay launched, the overwhelming of Tech and Silicon Valley support a cashless society. Apple made the claim Cash is old fashioned, Quote "cash will be dead for the next generation of kids". I think most reading on HN should take a moment and reflect on that.
Ferret7446 4y ago
This isn't a problem with cashless, since cryptocurrency solves this exact problem. It's unfortunate that many critics are uninformed and don't understand this.

anovikov 4y ago

I'd raise the opposite point: for every reaction there is counterreaction. Going cashless will inevitably become a major boost for crypto and will greatly help detach crypto from fiat, becoming a major facilitator of illicit transactions of all kinds, to the point that people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable, destroying the very notion of law and order. People should be permitted to do lesser evil (go to the corner and buy a joint for cash) lest they will build a workaround so good there will be no reason to stop in expanding it's use until it consumes the very fabric of society.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Going cashless will inevitably become a major boost for crypto These are unlinked. Demographics using crypto loosely correlate with those going cashless. Cashless countries even more loosely correlate with crypto adoption. > people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable We have a long tradition of this with our 21-year drinking age. People can differentiate between the laws they can break and the ones they shouldn’t. In any case, arguing crypto will undermine state power ignores the millennia of commodity money.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  > We have a long tradition of this with our 21-year drinking age. People can differentiate between the laws they can break and the ones they shouldn’t. Well, not really. It was originally 18 to drink. Thanks to the federal government linking interstate funds to a requirement states support 21 drinking age is how they did that. In some states, even 16 could drink beer prior to the feds fucking things up.
  - 4ggr0 4y ago
    > In some states, even 16 could drink beer prior to the feds fucking things up. That's one thing I always found funny when looking at the US as a european. When I had my first legal beer as a sixteen year old I remembered that I would only be allowed to do this in the US in five more years. Of course the actual first beer was drank when I was fifteen. What I always wondered - In countries where beer is allowed at sixteen, people usually try it when fifteen, because doing forbidden things is obviously cool during this age. But in the US, do kids start illegaly drinking when they're twenty, or do y'all also start experimenting earlier? EDIT: Also love the fact that 18 year olds in the US can join the military, yet aren't allowed to drink a beer until three years later.
    - cnasc 4y ago
      > In countries where beer is allowed at sixteen, people usually try it when fifteen, because doing forbidden things is obviously cool Pretty similar in the US. I didn’t try drinking at that age, but many high schoolers will.
      - 4ggr0 4y ago
        I see, that does make sense. American kids must feel even more badass then, considering that they're doing something 5-6 years earlier than they'd be allowed to :)
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      18 year olds in the military can’t buy beer, absolutely nobody cares if they drink it or not. In the whole time I was in not a single person got in trouble for the drinking but for whatever stupid things they did while drinking. And it’s because they make you follow the local laws, when we were down in Panama the officers all chipped in and bought us a shitton of beer on our last night there. There was another time at Ft Bragg where they were like “anyone not over 21 can’t drink” and then just walked away leaving us with another shitton of beer.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>to the point that people will stop seeing breaking the law as anything objectionable, destroying the very notion of law and order. This is already the case in the tax brackets that are too far down there for most of HN to have any familiarity with. People there don't just think "oh it's the law, better blindly lick the boot" when they encounter a legal requirement. They think "what's the fine, what's the enforcement mechanism, is this a serious law or just a suggestion I can skirt as long as I am reasonable?". If you never leave the "good school district" you bought into you'd never know.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  This also happens above the HN tax bracket too. It's only the professional class that seems to follow the rules like this.
  - anovikov 4y ago
    In US, maybe. One thing i love about Europe is that people here tend to really follow law to the letter, and actually know it. And consult with lawyers in any case that seems in doubt. When vast majority of people are like that, it's no longer "boot licking", it's for everyone's benefit. It's only stupid when everyone else but you ignores the law.
    - fenesiistvan 4y ago
      Haha. Where are you living? :) (I am in Romania, still EU)
    - throwaway675309 4y ago
      That depends on the laws we're talking about. There is such a thing as a conscientious objector which you seem to not be familiar with, see Aaron Schwartz for a prime example.

keepit2urself 4y ago

> I'd love to go cashless then go cashless & don't encroach nor impose your wishes on others

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>then go cashless & don't encroach nor impose your wishes on others Our current society has too high a fraction of pro-jackboot types in it for that to be a tractable solution.

mikewarot 4y ago

> Granted, it was kind of an emergency situation, No, it wasn't an emergency, it was a bunch of angry truckers, outdoors. Cutting off banking to some of those who supported them with a donation was a direct political threat to everyone, a highly authoritarian response.

redanddead 4y ago
is there any scenario where you would change your mind about the topic?
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  Why would they need to change their mind?
  - redanddead 4y ago
    It's more about finding the logic of the argument

collegeburner 4y ago

I would not it put it past governments to shut down some types of payments if there was another lockdown. "Oh sorry it doesn't look like that's an essential business wait just 14 days!"

ksec 4y ago

And I thought it may be worth pointing out, since 2014/2015, and all the way to 2018/2019. 95%+ HN comments were against cash. In the year where Apple Pay launched, the overwhelming of Tech and Silicon Valley support a cashless society. Apple made the claim Cash is old fashioned, Quote "cash will be dead for the next generation of kids". I think most reading on HN should take a moment and reflect on that.

Ferret7446 4y ago

This isn't a problem with cashless, since cryptocurrency solves this exact problem. It's unfortunate that many critics are uninformed and don't understand this.