15 ms·

As a New Yorker driving around middle america is super depressing. I can't imagine growing up trapped in my own home on a street with no sidewalks, only being a

• horns4lyfe 4y ago
  Plenty of middle America is not like that at all. We also have these things called bikes that work really well in small towns.
• kodah 4y ago
  Honestly, I found this a bit insulting.
• refurb 4y ago
  I grew up in a dense urban core and can’t imagine putting kids through it. Little to no green space, no riding your bikes down random streets until it’s get dark. No exposure to nature. Cramped in tiny $1M apartments immersed in the rat race.
  • tptacek 4y ago
    Tiny $1MM apartments aren't the alternative to SFZ.
    • bluGill 4y ago
      Be careful though. Until we fill all the demand of people who can afford to pay for those $1MM apartments nobody will be building cheaper stuff. That there is demand for tiny apartments says we have a problem with supply.
  • pcwalton 4y ago
    There are plenty of very livable US college towns with medium-density downtowns, condos for far less than $1M, plenty of green space, and streets I'd feel comfortable letting my kids (if I had any) ride their bikes around. Bloomington, Indiana, Madison, Wisconsin, and Davis, California (granted, that last one isn't as affordable as the others) come to mind among places I've been to. I imagine places like Ann Arbor, Michigan and Champaign, Illinois rank up there too.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • refurb 4y ago
      Those aren’t suburbs to you? Sure the main commercial street (maybe a few blocks total) isn’t, but Ann Arbor is 90% suburban single family homes. It’s like San Mateo. The Main Street is more dense but very few choose to live there. It’s mostly endless single family homes. Hell, I’d call a good part of SF “practically” suburban. Sunset is mostly block upon block of single family homes with maybe 1 corner store within a 10-15 min walk. Transit is easy on a narrow strip, otherwise you’re screwed without a car. I personally don’t see much difference between that and what people rail against as suburbs.
  • presentation 4y ago
    You mean American, crappily designed urban cores. Plenty of cities around the world that are safe, have plenty of green space, and are much more affordable than those in the US.
    • refurb 4y ago
      Yeah, no. I spent time in Singapore. Incredible transit system, carefully designed "Garden City" with plenty of outdoor areas, modern, efficient, affordable public housing. And what did people aspire to? Single family homes, with their own yard and a car. What HN sees as "people are forced to live in the suburbs", is in reality, people just choosing what they like best. Same in all the other countries I've lived in. Sure, 20-somethings love living in "hip" cities with "trendy" restaurants and "fun" bars to go and are willing to trade all that for tiny apartments. I don't deny that. But a very substantial part of the population don't want that. They want space, quiet neighborhoods and are willing to have to drive to get that.
      • Sakos 4y ago
        I'm very confused. Singapore doesn't have the space for single family housing. The vast majority of homes there are flats/apartments. https://www.singstat.gov.sg/find-data/search-by-theme/households/households/latest-data https://www.singstat.gov.sg/find-data/search-by-theme/househ...
        • Omniusaspirer 4y ago
          Yes, but the most valuable are the freehold GCBs.
        • thablackbull 4y ago
          I think what he means is that, given the choice, people there would opt for a good class bungalow (essentially your 'detached home', but most will never be able to afford it). That is an obvious statement, but the analogy breaks down a bit as in Singapore, whether you live in a GCB or in HDB (social housing), everything is relatively close by regardless. Hence, there isn't really much of a trade-off at all - living in a GCB just affords more space and privacy (at an exponentially inflated cost).
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • yardie 4y ago
    My city had more dog parks than kid parks. As the lone parent raising a kid in the city when I can make it to the city planning meetings I’m usually drowned out by the dog park “lobby”. Living in the city is great; access to museums, art, culture, food, and transit is tops.
    • bluGill 4y ago
      Like most cities, yours has pushed out parents and the concerns of kids. Suburbs are more welcoming to kids in general because here we have more parks for kids than dogs. Here we don't have museums - but we don't miss them because we know from experience our kids can only stand being in one for about 10 minutes before they start doing that will get us kicked out if we don't leave first. A good portion of your art not kid friendly. Culture is everywhere, we don't get the "high culture" of the cities, but we have our own culture that works for us. We do a lot more cooking at home as we can't afford eating out as much, but I will grant when we do go out there is a lack of choices. All you really have that we would even use is much better transit. It doesn't have to be that way. I'm told NYC is still welcoming to kids. Most cities though are not places where they have things for family.
      • gommm 4y ago
        > Here we don't have museums - but we don't miss them because we know from experience our kids can only stand being in one for about 10 minutes before they start doing that will get us kicked out if we don't leave first. A good portion of your art not kid friendly. As a kid, I loved going to the natural history museum and the science museum. There's plenty of museums that caters to kids and that are really great with kids (not sure in the US to be honest but at least that's true in Europe). Museums doesn't mean art only. Likewise for theater plays, that's the kind of things that are only available in bigger cities but can be tons of fun with kids.
        • frumper 4y ago
          We have kids museums in the US too. As a new parent I just discovered 2 nearby that have been here for decades. They have old donated vehicles like a police car, city bus, ambulances, or science stations, things like that. Things like plays exist, but it rural places they tend to be limited productions, either school or a traveling group. It may not make financial sense to have a play offered 6 nights/week all year in a small town, but a couple weekends throughout the year is common.
• topkai22 4y ago
  Oh plenty of us figured out how to get out and have fun/cause trouble.
• porknubbins 4y ago
  Growing up in Middle America was nowhere near as depressing as you’re describing it. We had bikes to get around, woods and empty lots and big backyards and parks to explore. Not to mention friends on the same block. Of course NYC would be much more exciting once you’re allowed to ride the train on your own.
  • wyre 4y ago
    And now those woods are a new suburb, the empty lots a new target.
    • tomc1985 4y ago
      Maybe on the popular coasts, but most of inner USA is little pockets of development spread out among large wilderness Hell even the California countryside is like this, once you get far enough away from the big cities
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      • throwaway894345 4y ago
        Agreed. I think people on the coasts (or at least the east coast) fail to appreciate the vastness of the rest of the country that they so often look down on.
      • Tiktaalik 4y ago
        > once you get far enough away from the big cities This is the key statement. Build more SFH suburbs, gonna take you longer and longer to get far away from those cities.
        • tomc1985 4y ago
          Yes, but it really isn't that far. As soon as you leave the edge of suburba-mega-town you're in wilderness again. Where I live it's much less than a half-hour of driving, from the most interior parts of the city, in most conditions.
• gonehome 4y ago
  Yeah it's isolating, though the internet was an incredible improvement in access to new information and interesting/smart people to learn from. There are major benefits to being in or at least close to a more populated hub.
• MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  God forbid that kids have yards and empty lots to play in, ponds to go fishing in, and the woods to go hunting in. I could tolerate New York as an adult. I'd rather jump off one of those skyscrapers than live in one as a kid.
  • kelnos 4y ago
    Consider that your current beliefs and preferences exist specifically because of your experience as a kid, when your brain was developing and assimilating its environment as its worldview. I know plenty of people who grew up in NYC and have happy memories of childhood (and as an adult, I know several people raising kids in NYC, and they seem fine). I grew up in the suburbs and have happy memories of a lot of the things people are praising here. But my mom also took my sister and me on the 45-minute bus ride to the city a few times a year, and that was a different kind of adventure. Ditto for tagging along on my dad's business trips to Baltimore and DC. Neither is better, neither is right or wrong. They're just different, and we establish many of our preferences and attitudes toward things based on our experiences as kids. That doesn't make those preferences correct or incorrect. It just makes them preferences.
    • throwaway894345 4y ago
      The parent is sharing his preference in response to the grandparent’s preference. Surely turnabout is fair play?
    • MisterBastahrd 4y ago
      If all you know is living in a cage, and you're told that being out of the cage is a bad thing, then you're going to make a value decision that being caged is actually okay. Just look at all the people on HN who can't believe that there are people who don't want to be stacked on top of other people in tiny, expensive caves. Making trips to the city isn't the same as living in one.
• psyc 4y ago
  The growing up part was good. As a late teen, not being able to get to anyplace that mattered was maximally soul crushing, yes. The sole source of my suffering for several years.
• qwerpy 4y ago
  As a current Seattleite who grew up in middle America biking around as a kid anywhere I wanted, I have the opposite feeling. I thought it was great! Maybe it’s more about the person than it is the location.
  • s1artibartfast 4y ago
    A lot of people can't imagine how nice it is to be able to go out casually into the woods or wilderness With Friends on the weekend or even a school night
    • watwut 4y ago
      Arent most single family homes in suburbs or similar places where there are no woods and often no sidewalks? Then everywhere you go, there are just more of single family houses and going to nearest wood requires a car.
      • s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I guess it depends on what is meant by middle America in the parent post. In my experience, if neighborhoods don't have sidewalks, they are more rural than suburban.
        • ido 4y ago
          In a lot of suburbs of Atlanta* (and even within Atlanta itself!) you will find residential neighborhoods with no sidewalks. And these are definitely not rural. * The choice of city is due to personal experience, but I doubt it's unusual - e.g. I'm pretty sure it's exactly the same in/around Miami.
        • grvdrm 4y ago
          Indeed, you typically see fewer sidewalks near houses that are closer to woods/etc. I also wonder what sorts of distances people think of as "far" in this thread. I've lived in both suburbs and in NYC. It's easy to walk a mile in the city without realizing it, whereas that is sometimes unthinkable to suburban folks. But if I walk a mile from my house I hit: woods, trails, the downtown area, the train station (to NYC), a school, fields, and etc. At least in the U.S. - think it matters quite a bit where you are. Lots of areas in South and West were developed entirely around car use whereas suburbs in the Northeast can be quite tightly packed.
• trombone5000 4y ago
  Growing up in a midwest suburb during the 1980s, not only were we not trapped in our own homes, we were almost never in them at all. Everybody just biked from place to place and spent like 18 hours a day outside of the house, playing basketball, duplicating cassette tapes and making music in various garages.
  • matsemann 4y ago
    I feel it's interesting to see how many here touts bikes as the savior and best way to get around. The US suburbs are now generally so bike-unfriendly. Big and dangerous cars dominate. Speeds in residential areas are high, so dangerous to play in the streets. The suburbs you grew up in are no longer the same. What happened? Why did you all stop biking around and got a car instead?
    • xienze 4y ago
      > Big and dangerous cars dominate. Just how many cars do you think are zipping around in a suburban neighborhood at any given time? The roads in a neighborhood are empty most of the time. I find it rich that people talking up the benefits of riding a bike in a big city would seem concerned about the safety of using a bike in a low density neighborhood. > Speeds in residential areas are high What? No they’re not. In any given neighborhood the speed limit usually tops out at 25mph.
      • matsemann 4y ago
        The speed limit is of no concern to the parent in a big SUV driving their kids to practice. After all, their own kids are safe inside the car. And my point is that at some point, kids stopped biking everywhere. But it's the same people that used to bike around as kids now driving them everywhere. Hence my question: What happened?
        • xienze 4y ago
          > Hence my question: What happened? What happened to a lot of activities kids used to do? They got replaced by ubiquitous internet-connected devices that allow them to watch any video or play any game at any time. They’d rather do that than play outside, and childhood obesity rates track well with these developments. To put it another way, the neighborhood I grew up in 30+ years ago still exists, and the roads are the same size, the sidewalks are just as non-existent as they used to be, and there’s no more traffic than there used to be. But as you point out, sure there’s less kids out and about in the neighborhood when I was a kid. But I would note two things about that. One, when I was a kid, there was much less inside that could occupy my time than there is today. And two, I’d argue that if you’re an adult who has to work all day during the summer, you may not be noticing how many kids are actually playing outside during the day.
• smt88 4y ago
  I've lived in rural, suburban (McMansion-dominated), and urban parts of the US, including NYC. I grew up in a semi-rural place. NYC was by far the most depressing and soul-crushing for me. It's lonely despite being crowded, it's filthy, it's unreasonably expensive, it's hard to get anywhere, and it's unfortunately full of people with a similarly condescending viewpoint about people/places outside the city. I now live in a large southern city with lots of sidewalks and love it, and returning to New York makes me incredibly sad for the people who still think it's the only city to live in. My point is not that I'm correct. It's just how I feel. Rather, I suggest you examine how you talk about your viewpoint to avoid sounding so confident about things you have no actual experience in.
  • BenFranklin100 4y ago
    Sound like urban living is not your cup of tea. Which is entirely fine and something YIMBYs strongly support. YIMBYism is about options: those who do prefer to live in an area should not face artificial restrictions like bans on new homes in desirable areas near well paying jobs.
    • smt88 4y ago
      I love urban living and currently live in a dense part of a large city. Condescension toward people who don't fall into that category is what isn't my cup of tea.
      • BenFranklin100 4y ago
        Gotcha.
  • bshepard 4y ago
    I also find New York City to be extremely depressing, and radically subpar urbanistically compared with Berlin, where I currently live. You can take an S-Bahn in 30 minutes or so to S-Bahn Schlachtensee and swim clean, chill and easily accessible lake - a journey to the water in New York will take much much longer, involve more walking, and involve dirtier water. It is easy to find scapegoats for the poor urbanism of the United States, but very difficult to think of a solution without a radical change in the nature of governance.
• samatman 4y ago
  I had to ride a bike everywhere until I was old enough to inherit the family beater car and hop in the back with my girlfriend. Sucked, it did. Tragic really. Almost child abuse, if you think about it. I had to wait until adulthood to see a pile of festering trash taller than me sitting on the curb. Robbed!
• achow 4y ago
  I totally relate to this. I once had to stay in suburbia with far apart houses (Dallas). Nowhere to go without driving. It was very very lonely (I was single, to boot). I went on a business trip to NY, and I immediately felt alive. The 'energy' of people even though you don't know any of them, seeing so many faces, late night hustle & bustle - all very invigorating.
• bitlax 4y ago
  Weird, that's the same feeling most people have had watching you guys handle COVID.
  • kelnos 4y ago
    Ah yes, let's compare the 98% case with the 2% case as if they're the same thing.
    • bitlax 4y ago
      You think living in New York under COVID lockdown is like normal living in the midwest?
• whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  This is an American problem because they built suburbia around the car. Village life you see in Europe is a world apart.
• wil421 4y ago
  I feel bad for people who live like ants crammed in small depressing apartments. I’m not in a rural area by any means but I have so much nature and wildlife around me I could never live in a concrete jungle.
  • _fat_santa 4y ago
    People are different. I have friends that live in Miami and NYC, both absolutely love it there but whenever I visit I always want to ask why in the hell they are paying so much rent for so little. Likewise my friends visit me in Colorado and wonder why I'm so obsessed with going outside.
• _glass 4y ago
  this describes my childhood. I was growing up in a bigger city, and then moved to the suburbs when I was a teenager, it was horrible. Growing up with the autonomy of a big city kid, I couldn't handle the dependencies, only relieved when I had my own car. Now I frantically hold on to my big city life, even we live in a very dense place with ridiculous rent.
• Mezzie 4y ago
  > only being able to go where my parents take me and finally growing into driving age so that I can go from parking lot to parking lot. Part of this is because we hover over kids and let them do less. I'm from middle America, and when my dad was a kid, he and his friends would bike 100 miles round trip and it was fine.