3 ms·

All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea.

All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?

to11mtm 4y ago
Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
  - duped 4y ago
    So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
sbradford26 4y ago
Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
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  - sbradford26 4y ago
    Minimizing electronics makes vehicles that people are not interested in buying. Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable. Making incredibly inefficient vehicles just because in these market conditions it is easier isn't sustainable, at some point you are going to have to make vehicles people want. Every time this comes up people say that want a vehicle with no electronics what so ever but that isn't what sells. The most sustainable path is to sell the most efficient type of vehicles that consumers will buy. Currently that is EVs and hybrids. Also in reference to you links, gas vehicles are also largely delayed there. And from my experience there are Bolts and priuses sitting on the lots in the US, now they are charging markups on them but that is the current market. Not sure what the situation is in Canada.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      That's an interesting argument. >Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable From a business standpoint, yes. However, making unsustainable (and unobtainable) vehicles that people do want, at least keeps the automotive industry alive (for now).
    - _ea1k 4y ago
      Yeah, the electronics free car that people say they want here is a bit like the cars that enthusiasts say they want on other websites. We used to joke that if the industry followed car site comments, they'd all offer at least one brown, diesel station wagon with a manual transmission. In reality, people don't buy that. And at purchase time, people choose the ones with features over the ones without them.
      - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
        > people don't buy that People that typically buy new cars don't want that. Those of us who only buy second hand cars are stuck with their choices.

to11mtm 4y ago

Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
- duped 4y ago
  So does depending on anything with plastics or steel

sbradford26 4y ago

Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
[dead]
- sbradford26 4y ago
  Minimizing electronics makes vehicles that people are not interested in buying. Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable. Making incredibly inefficient vehicles just because in these market conditions it is easier isn't sustainable, at some point you are going to have to make vehicles people want. Every time this comes up people say that want a vehicle with no electronics what so ever but that isn't what sells. The most sustainable path is to sell the most efficient type of vehicles that consumers will buy. Currently that is EVs and hybrids. Also in reference to you links, gas vehicles are also largely delayed there. And from my experience there are Bolts and priuses sitting on the lots in the US, now they are charging markups on them but that is the current market. Not sure what the situation is in Canada.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    That's an interesting argument. >Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable From a business standpoint, yes. However, making unsustainable (and unobtainable) vehicles that people do want, at least keeps the automotive industry alive (for now).
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    Yeah, the electronics free car that people say they want here is a bit like the cars that enthusiasts say they want on other websites. We used to joke that if the industry followed car site comments, they'd all offer at least one brown, diesel station wagon with a manual transmission. In reality, people don't buy that. And at purchase time, people choose the ones with features over the ones without them.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      > people don't buy that People that typically buy new cars don't want that. Those of us who only buy second hand cars are stuck with their choices.